Na'vi Afterlife

Started by Tìng Eywatikìte'e, January 19, 2010, 02:18:13 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Txur’Itan

Quote
"Oeri txoa lìvu
mawey (-a-?) tsmukan
Hu nawma sa'nok tìvul ngeyä tirea
Oeri txoa lìvu
mawey (-a-?) tsmukan
mawey (-a-?) tsmukan"

Forgive me would you?
peace/calm brother
With great/all mother you will be running in spirit
Forgive me would you?
peace/calm brother
peace/calm brother

A good quote for this thread and definately sums up the thought process of the Na'vi regarding death, but unfortunately only in part.  Why would Neytiri give this sort of prayer for the Nangtang and not her own father?  Certainly there was a sense of urgency, but she was not even carrying Eytukan's body off to have the ceremony elsewhere.  There could be prayers to hope or ask that Eywa would find a way to take them if a ritual or ceremony involving a connection to Eywa could not or would not be performed.

If there are different words for seeing with eyes and with spirit in the language, then there may be differentiations between what they believe to be true of Eywa and the afterlife, and what they know about Eywa from observations.  Being able to speak to the dead makes for interesting possibilities.  You essentially have proof of an afterlife of some kind, and it is a state of being "With Eywa" as Mo'at put it when Grace died, as opposed to the other way around of Eywa being with Grace. Does this suggest there is any other way to be when you die in the understanding of the Na'vi?  I think there is, but we lack details.

There is reason to believe the Na'vi have an opposite concept and possibly justifications for knowing it to be so.  In which case, Mo'at stating that Grace is with Eywa now, this would probably be a desirable outcome in Na'vi culture. Mo'at may have stated Grace to be with Eywa in order to be a form of comfort to Jake, similar to a common practice in religions we know on Earth.  Not being with Eywa means that what ever you are, is gone for ever, conceptually not as punishment, but a sad way for one to die. 

The "Eye of Eywa" is not clearly defined, but it would seem that transitioning into the Na'vi afterlife involves a physical connection to Eywa somehow.  And the visual cortex probably interprets this transition in the form of a "wormhole" as depicted in the movie when Grace died.  If Mo'at has seen this "wormhole", she probably has been with Eywa before.  The reference to a hole or a tunnel as an eye is an earthly idiom, so we can not completely be sure she is referring to this effect, but it seems like the case.

The burial ritual, where the dead Na'vi also had atokirina' buried there, eludes to a means or a process of ensuring the eventuality of being "with Eywa".  This seed may sprout into a "Tree of Voices" extracting the memories of the dead Na'vi uploading into the Eywa "database". 

There is a possibility that some die without this atokirina' event and they are possibly not "uploaded".  This must be a terrifying occurrences, and extremely sad for the survivors, which might explain why Neytiri was saying something to the effect of "Not this way Father" in Na'vi when Eytukan died.  This could essentially mean that she has lost him forever and can not connect him to Eywa as far as she knows.

The energy Jake states in his logs could be his misrepresentation, or mistranslation which adds a layer of abstraction that can confuse the topic of what Mo'at and Neytiri really mean about the connections of life on Pandora.  Or it could be literal, there is a bio electrical connection and that has within it a signal containing Memories that Eywa can record and store.

What I find interesting is that Eywa can connect with humans.  I wonder how big of a McGuffin this will be in the next two films.  One way or another there was some thoughts in the original J.C. script development of the Arc that Grace would continue on somehow.  I think we are going to meet her within Eywa, or have her re-enter her AVTR body in the next film.  The AVTR bodies do not appear to "DIE" from a lack of consciousness, it is theoretically possible to keep her AVTR alive indefinitely.  What we she be like after coming back from being with Eywa, will she have learned about the before times?  Will she have spoken to dead Na'vi?  Anyhow, this should be another topic, not intended to derail, but she is seemingly in the gray area of being in the Na'vi after life or not...
私は太った男だ。


Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

Quote from: uniltìyìranyu on January 19, 2010, 03:53:26 PM
But a wonderful idea.

Is there also a Na'Vi hell?

Quaritch's bedroom?
Naruto Shippuden Episode 166: Confession
                                    Watch it, Love it, Live it

Txur’Itan

Quote from: Nìwotxkrr Tsahameylu on January 19, 2010, 05:24:32 PM
Quote from: uniltìyìranyu on January 19, 2010, 03:53:26 PM
But a wonderful idea.

Is there also a Na'Vi hell?

Quaritch's bedroom?

LOL

Seriously though, I think if being with Eywa is desirable.  Not being with Eywa is most probably equivalent to the concept of Hell by itself, but not in any way to be taken literally.  Either way, it has not been presented in the context of any canonical references.
私は太った男だ。


Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Yes I think not being with Eywa is probably the worst thing that could happen to the Na'vi.

I agree that the funeral ceremony in their eyes is their way of insuring their dead tsmuke path to Eywa, the same probably with the prayer to their fallen prey.

This is how most societies see their funerals. Like placing gold on the eyes of the dead for the Greek so they could pay their way across the River Styx. People who died at sea were thought to be lost forever, doomed to be stuck on the wrong side of the Underworld forever, hence why sailors got so superstitious. 

If Neytiri was indeed saying something like "not like this" to her father it could be very well that she is referring to him not being able to have a proper funeral.

I wonder if the Na'vi have a form of a "mass funeral." A way in which they could insure the passage through Eywa of all of their fallen aysmuke in cases like the fall of Hometree.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Elektrolurch

I think, a grave gets worthless as soon as it's part of a mass funeral ... The sprits must not be stored like files on a PC. But ... Maybe there's a rebirth? If the life isn't done correctly, you have to do it again?
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

Txur’Itan

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 19, 2010, 11:46:18 PM
Yes I think not being with Eywa is probably the worst thing that could happen to the Na'vi.

I agree that the funeral ceremony in their eyes is their way of insuring their dead tsmuke path to Eywa, the same probably with the prayer to their fallen prey.

This is how most societies see their funerals. Like placing gold on the eyes of the dead for the Greek so they could pay their way across the River Styx. People who died at sea were thought to be lost forever, doomed to be stuck on the wrong side of the Underworld forever, hence why sailors got so superstitious. 

Definitely good earthly examples to draw from.

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 19, 2010, 11:46:18 PM
If Neytiri was indeed saying something like "not like this" to her father it could be very well that she is referring to him not being able to have a proper funeral.

There were no subtitles for that phrase in the scene, but if the defined words we have here on the site are indication, I think I have a rough Idea what she was crying. The way it is said is as an instruction, a command, or a request to her father, not a negative response or answer. 

{"< fìfya kehe | kehe fìfya > ma sempul"} However, I think I will need to go for a 13th viewing to check my facts on the timing of that specific phrase, and the specifics of what phrase she spoke over her deceased father.  Any excuse to see AVATAR again,

urm... I mean do research!

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 19, 2010, 11:46:18 PM
I wonder if the Na'vi have a form of a "mass funeral." A way in which they could insure the passage through Eywa of all of their fallen aysmuke in cases like the fall of Hometree.

I think they should have that in the beginnings of the sequel, or something where they have a set of "funerals" just after the expulsion of the humans event where they care for the dead. I think the sequel should start by dealing with the grief of their battle and the consequences of what had happened, it would deepen the characters who survive into the next film a great deal.  In the real world people have to contend with the losses of loved ones, and grieve, and while it is probably not an action packed idea, it would definately spur the motivations for future decisions on the part of Jake and Neytiri.  I think it would effect my decisions, I would not want to cause the loss of so much life again if I could avoid it, especially if they were people I truly cared about, and as a Tsahìk Mo'at and Neytiri would have many dead to lay to rest for the comfort of the clan.

Quote from: uniltìyìranyu on January 20, 2010, 01:37:58 AM
I think, a grave gets worthless as soon as it's part of a mass funeral ... The sprits must not be stored like files on a PC. But ... Maybe there's a rebirth? If the life isn't done correctly, you have to do it again?

A mass funeral would be practical, but very tragic and impersonal.  I can see Jake and the human scientists recommending a mass grave to prevent the spread of disease, and the clan wanting to do individual ceremonies for emotional, spiritual or Eywa connective reasons.

Rebirth in Jake's case is an interesting component.  How would the Na'vi know how to do that, what else do they use that trick for?
私は太った男だ。


Tìng Eywatikìte'e

I agree that the movie needs to start, or at least at some point address, how the Na'vi deal with a massive amount of death.

I know that mass funerals may seem impersonal, but if you have a large amount of burned bodies, some possibly unrecoverable, what other choice do you have? If it was my only way to Eywa I'd rather have an impersonal funeral than none at all.

I like the idea of rebirth. They had to get the idea for body transfer from somewhere, but the question is where. I doubt they have spare bodies laying around for whenever someone gets injured.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Elektrolurch

I think, that all the people pray for quite a long time if a bigger amount of Na'Vi dies. Every corpse deserves a lot of intense ..
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

A. A. Aaron

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 19, 2010, 11:46:18 PM
Yes I think not being with Eywa is probably the worst thing that could happen to the Na'vi.


In christianity, hell isn't really lakes of fire and brimstone - (although these things are featured in the imagery of hell, even in the bible) the true torment is eternal separation from God. To be exposed to him and then be separated from him for all time.
I suppose that could be hell for the Na'vi - to spend your whole life knowing Eywa and seeing firsthand (via things like the tree of voices) that there is an eternity where your spirit will be reunited with your people and you will always be happy and welcomed - and then be shut out of that eternity.
Sure sounds like hell to me.

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Well I'm sure the Na'vi have been doing plenty of praying for their fellow aysmukan, but I'm talking about the actual process of a funeral. If the atokorina do play an actual part in downloading their memories to Eywa they need to have a way of making sure they get to all of the dead Na'vi.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Elektrolurch

Very right .. It's very demanding to manage that .. But: Do the Na'Vi ever have cases where that much people die? Whey they didn't up to now, they have to cope with a completely new situation. Every Na'Vi has to gain a "perfect" afterlife" .. until he's reborn?
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

I'm sure there have been mass deaths before. Remember that there have been five times of "great sorrow" that we know of. I'm guessing that there were a lot of deaths during these times. Also there doesn't need to be a mass death quite as large as at Hometree for there to be the need of a mass funeral. What if there was a fire where say twenty people died, they would probably have to do the same thing as they will do for Hometree. (Oh gods, getting tired, grammar skills disappearing...)
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Eywal ngaru teing oeti

Quote from: uniltìyìranyu on January 20, 2010, 02:11:50 AM
Very right .. It's very demanding to manage that .. But: Do the Na'Vi ever have cases where that much people die? Whey they didn't up to now, they have to cope with a completely new situation. Every Na'Vi has to gain a "perfect" afterlife" .. until he's reborn?

About the reborn thing. They wouldn't be reborn as far as I know. You would think that once they join Eywa, they wouldn't want to be reborn. Plus, if they were reborn then the Na'vi would know that and they wouldn't be sad when their love ones die, cause they know they would be reborn. Which defeats the purpose.

Toruk Makto

Quote from: A. A. Aaron on January 20, 2010, 02:02:07 AM
I suppose that could be hell for the Na'vi - to spend your whole life knowing Eywa and seeing firsthand (via things like the tree of voices) that there is an eternity where your spirit will be reunited with your people and you will always be happy and welcomed - and then be shut out of that eternity. Sure sounds like hell to me.

 I mentioned in another thread that when I first read the 2007 script where Tsu tey has his queue cut off by the RDA guys, the thought of that ruined my whole day. I know it is a totally imagined concept for the film, but something very deep inside me recoils in horror at the thought of it.  :'(

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

A. A. Aaron

Quote from: Txepäsiyu on January 20, 2010, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: A. A. Aaron on January 20, 2010, 02:02:07 AM
I suppose that could be hell for the Na'vi - to spend your whole life knowing Eywa and seeing firsthand (via things like the tree of voices) that there is an eternity where your spirit will be reunited with your people and you will always be happy and welcomed - and then be shut out of that eternity. Sure sounds like hell to me.

 I mentioned in another thread that when I first read the 2007 script where Tsu tey has his queue cut off by the RDA guys, the thought of that ruined my whole day. I know it is a totally imagined concept for the film, but something very deep inside me recoils in horror at the thought of it.  :'(
Okay, that makes me feel physically sick. I could have gone my whole life without thinking about that. Thanks a LOT.

Txur’Itan

Quote from: A. A. Aaron on January 20, 2010, 02:25:54 PM
Quote from: Txepäsiyu on January 20, 2010, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: A. A. Aaron on January 20, 2010, 02:02:07 AM
I suppose that could be hell for the Na'vi - to spend your whole life knowing Eywa and seeing firsthand (via things like the tree of voices) that there is an eternity where your spirit will be reunited with your people and you will always be happy and welcomed - and then be shut out of that eternity. Sure sounds like hell to me.

 I mentioned in another thread that when I first read the 2007 script where Tsu tey has his queue cut off by the RDA guys, the thought of that ruined my whole day. I know it is a totally imagined concept for the film, but something very deep inside me recoils in horror at the thought of it.  :'(
Okay, that makes me feel physically sick. I could have gone my whole life without thinking about that. Thanks a LOT.

I wonder what happens to those who live without a queue.  Are they already considered dead?  Do they receive a ceremony?  The Queue cutting was implied, but not performed, I wonder if that will be a horror of the next film?

"You are walking dead.  You must not be here!" - Zombie Na'vi!

Seriously though, I wonder how the surviving Na'vi, steeped in Eywa centric culture deals with not being able to connect, and how does that effect their choices in preparing for death?
私は太った男だ。


Elektrolurch

I strongly believe in a possibility of restoring the tsaheylu .. Just like in the movie scene, where Grace is brought to the tree of souls  :)
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

Txur’Itan

Quote from: uniltìyìranyu on January 20, 2010, 04:03:54 PM
I strongly believe in a possibility of restoring the tsaheylu .. Just like in the movie scene, where Grace is brought to the tree of souls  :)

That scene opens a whole book's worth of questions.  But considering my point, the only reference we have is that cutting the Tsahaylu is a form of punishment, would such a restorative event take place for the punished?  I don't know as neither cause nor effect has been presented for observation.  So for now, I will save some of that inquiry for the sequel I would have to guess...

私は太った男だ。


Elektrolurch

What about the Na'Vi, who probably lost their queue in an accident or whatever?
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

Zalorticus

If someone was punished to the extent that they lost the Tsahaylu, I think they would have to do something absolutely profound, moreso than becoming Toruk Makto, to gain it back. Even then, I would not be sure how it would happen. If Eywa could switch a spirit into another body, I'm sure she could give back a Tsahaylu.

If one lost there queue in an accident, I think that the Na'vi will pray to Eywa to try and get their queue back. At this point, though, we can only make assumptions and guesstimate.
Failure is the mother of success.
Soon, we will no longer be the leaves on the wind, but the wind itself.
You don't have to be a scholar to be a leader.
Join the real life Na'vi tribe here  (And yes, it will be a real tribe in the real world, NOT a role play tribe!)