Author Topic: Na'vi Afterlife  (Read 14174 times)

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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2010, 06:42:42 am »

On an incredibly nerdy point. Who here has played Final Fantasy X? In it when people die their "souls" are sent to the Farplane where they are turned into these fire fly things. A living human can visit the Farplane and they can summon up a memory of a loved dead one and an imagine of them will appear. It is not really a ghost, merely a memory left behind by the fireflies. I imagine that this could be what the Na'vi hear while the rest of their "energy" is converted to something Eywa can use as the energy is only borrowed and must be given back to her.

I have played X and X-2 and many of the FF before that.  The Far Plane features prominently in the whole of both stories.  The essence of spirit in that story seems to allow for reconstitution, a significant leap of resurrection possibility far beyond what has thus been exhibited in the Eywa components of Na'vi interaction.

However, this does present some interesting derivations on reincarnation (a la The Matrix).

The Atokirina' using the Na'vi essences to rebuild the Na'vi mind in the form of a tree of voices, then connecting them to the Eywa environment.  So killing those trees basically kills their family for good.  Yikes! That is a definite realm of extraterrestrial morality that that I did not see coming.  I suppose I would be a bit disgruntled myself.
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Offline Sol Lupusnight

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2010, 07:21:23 am »


On an incredibly nerdy point. Who here has played Final Fantasy X? In it when people die their "souls" are sent to the Farplane where they are turned into these fire fly things. A living human can visit the Farplane and they can summon up a memory of a loved dead one and an imagine of them will appear. It is not really a ghost, merely a memory left behind by the fireflies. I imagine that this could be what the Na'vi hear while the rest of their "energy" is converted to something Eywa can use as the energy is only borrowed and must be given back to her.
[/quote]

They were called Pyreflies from what i remember and i agree that when you die, your physical body dies and returns to Gaia but your spirit and energy gets recycled through the circle of life. And that would suck if sense the tree of voices was destroyed their spirits were gone for good and they couldn't access their ancestors ever again.
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Offline Coyote

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2010, 07:40:29 am »
A lot of this sounds similar to the Australian Aboriginal belief in the Dreamtime. I'm no anthropologist, but what I've studied is that there was, before the Earth, a "Dreamtime" where all the spirits were pooled together as one energy, and after the formation of the Earth the spirit-energy of the Dreamtime was allowed to splinter into pieces and become human souls to experience the world. When they died, the spirits left the body and returned to the Dreamtime, carrying their experiences back, and waiting to be reborn again. Uluru ("Ayer's Rock") in central Australia is supposed to be a spiritual nexus, a portal for the Dreamtime and Earth to intersect.

That's the paperback Cliff's Notes version, anyway. A real anthropologist could probably be much more thorough, of course.

The Na'vi could have a similar set-up with the Tree of Souls being like Uluru, and spirits of Eywa splintering and being cycled through life-phase and dream-phase.

Maybe Na'vi hell is to take a criminal and mind-transfer a new consciousness into him through Eywa, so that the physical body can still be used to contribute, rather than take, from society? Religions tend to see heaven & hell in relation to what they experienced on Earth-- in Judaism, for example, a lot of "Heaven" focuses on justice, since Jews generally feel we didn't get a lot of that on Earth. In Christianity, they were expected to be poor and humble on Earth, and it was in Heaven that they got "rewards" and received the things they deserved for their suffering (and as mentioned, Hell was separation from God, in Lucifer's example). Etc.



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Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2010, 10:01:12 am »
The Aboriginals are not a group I have a lot of expertise in but that was a good generalization of the Dreamtime, and it does have some similarities to the Na'vi.

The idea of being able to push someone else conscience into a criminals is a terrifying idea of a punishment, but certainly a possibility.

In my philosophy class we are discussing the "self" and what it actually is. Are we just a bundle of preconceptions? Are our memories all we really have or is there something even more basic. Is Eywa saving the "self" by saving their memories or are they merely a remnant of the true original "self?"
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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2010, 10:53:42 am »
I hereby declare this thread to be made of win and awesome.

It's getting VERY interesting. If I wasn't at work right now I'd be able to contribute more. :P

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2010, 10:55:44 am »
I'm getting very tempted to link it to my philosophy teacher and see if she has anything to add >.> Hmmm, it's a possibility. I'll she how she reacts to my discussion post on the self and Avatar first.
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Offline Coyote

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2010, 09:49:56 pm »
So much of self is experience, and your experience will be shaped by your environment.

For example, if I had been born with the same personality, but, say, Black, or female, I'd end up as a different person than I am now because other people would react differently to me because of their preconceived notions of "how to interact with a Black person" or "-female". Which in turn would shape my reactions to them, and so on.

But I wonder if that would happen in Na'vi society, since their tsaheylu bonds during group rituals would sort of "re-set" their sense of community identity in relation to their individual identity. And how much would Eywa influence that? If it "takes all kinds" to make a world of village, would Eywa subtly influence people to be who they are? "We need... a weaver. This one will have a natural tendency towards weaving. We need an artist, too, so this one will lean towards tseo."

Would Eywa also influence archetype roles? "We need a stern guy who may be a bit of a jerk at times, but does what is right."

Sorry, probably pointless rattle but this got me brainstorming.
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
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Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2010, 01:18:03 am »
Don't apologize! You bring up interesting points!

Once again it all depends on how conscious of a being Eywa is. Is she a fully conscious all knowing deity or a much more subtle power that is everywhere but doesn't "think" as we do? Hard to tell.

Even with something like Tsuhaylu I'm not sure people would "reset" they all clearly have unique personalities which are not something we are born with. Our genetics play a part in determining our temperament which shapes our personalities, but it is our daily experiences that really shape them.   
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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2010, 01:38:32 am »
Don't apologize! You bring up interesting points!

Once again it all depends on how conscious of a being Eywa is. Is she a fully conscious all knowing deity or a much more subtle power that is everywhere but doesn't "think" as we do? Hard to tell.

Even with something like Tsuhaylu I'm not sure people would "reset" they all clearly have unique personalities which are not something we are born with. Our genetics play a part in determining our temperament which shapes our personalities, but it is our daily experiences that really shape them.   
Perhaps Eywa is the collective consciousness of 'everything'? just sort of a hive-mind which doesn't 'think' but can 'react' - defending itself as we see in the movie. Somehow she sensed the impending danger in the minds of the Na'vi and animals and her 'immune system' kicked in, sending out subtle energies to the animals guiding them to attack the aytawtute? That would jive well with what Neytiri says about Eywa not taking sides, but preserving the balance. (she can't choose to help you because she can't choose to do anything)

But, if there is no consciousness there, how do we explain the way that the seeds of the sacred tree were 'attracted' to jake?
hmm...

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2010, 01:54:07 am »
I agree with your points A.A.

As for the atokarina I've discussed one theory with the Toruk thread. If we believe the Ikran really "choose" their riders there must be a way for them to sense who is right for them. If Jake was truly "chosen" by Toruk than it's possible that the same energy/aura/electrical field/whatever that shows Toruk his chosen rider would attract the atokarina.
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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2010, 02:02:44 am »
I agree with your points A.A.

As for the atokarina I've discussed one theory with the Toruk thread. If we believe the Ikran really "choose" their riders there must be a way for them to sense who is right for them. If Jake was truly "chosen" by Toruk than it's possible that the same energy/aura/electrical field/whatever that shows Toruk his chosen rider would attract the atokarina.
I'm tempted to try and find some kind of explanation for that, but I would rather let it be a mystery. I'm over-thinking a lot of this stuff.

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2010, 02:15:25 am »
I enjoy over thinking things, it's what I do. I would appreciate it if you did as well, since I don't have the science background needed to really come up with more solid reasons to back up my theories.
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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2010, 11:07:02 am »
I enjoy over thinking things, it's what I do. I would appreciate it if you did as well, since I don't have the science background needed to really come up with more solid reasons to back up my theories.

Okay, only because you asked me to. :)
I'll think about how this phenomenom may occur and I'll post about it tonight.

I suppose it's better to think too much than to drink too much, anyway right?

Offline Tìng Eywatikìte'e

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2010, 12:40:19 pm »
Haha, it's impossible to think to much about this sort of things. Cameron gave us plenty of scientific set ups in this film. Science and mysticism were supposed to stand side by side instead of fighting for dominance. Finding a scientific answer won't destroy the beauty of it. Unlike the destruction of the mystery of the Force by those unmentionables.
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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2010, 05:01:49 pm »
Haha, it's impossible to think to much about this sort of things. Cameron gave us plenty of scientific set ups in this film. Science and mysticism were supposed to stand side by side instead of fighting for dominance. Finding a scientific answer won't destroy the beauty of it. Unlike the destruction of the mystery of the Force by those unmentionables.

Very true. Besides - how does the expression go? Any science or technology, sufficiently advanced - is indistinguishable from magic.

Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2010, 09:57:07 pm »
I agree with your points A.A.

As for the atokarina I've discussed one theory with the Toruk thread. If we believe the Ikran really "choose" their riders there must be a way for them to sense who is right for them. If Jake was truly "chosen" by Toruk than it's possible that the same energy/aura/electrical field/whatever that shows Toruk his chosen rider would attract the atokarina.
Now, I'm not a scientist. My educational background is in engineering, and electronics is a hobby of mine.
Everything that lives functions because of electricity. From brainwaves to the cells of our bodies - we all work because of (literally) the 'spark of life'. Where there is electricity, there is magnetism - current flow causes magnetic fields. All animals have a magnetic field, and each one is unique. Some animals are very sensitive to magnetic fields - sharks can sense them, and it is beleived that migratory birds use them to navigate.

We have seen that the atokirina can 'swim' through the air by pulsing the bell-shaped group of tendrils at their tops - sort of like a jellyfish. They move with some intelligence behind them - they can decide when to land, when to 'fly' and what direction to go in. Plants can move, yes but I think that the atokirina are a different thing entirely, perhaps like the 'planimals' mentioned in the ASG or a kind of plant which has developed in such a way that it has the capability of energetic movement for an extended period? But how does it know where to go? Perhaps it can sense electromagnetic fields - normally using the magnetic field of Pandora for navigation?
Electromagnetic fields can have an effect on how plants grow - some studies have shown that some EM fields promote growth, some inhibit growth. What if, under normal circumstances the atokirina are released from the tree and fly away, sensing the EM fields on Pandora, 'looking' for the correct strength EM field that will help it grow best?

Maybe Jake's avatar body's odd (read as man-made) EM field threw off the navigation of the atokirina and they landed on him because they were 'confused'? Then they realized that they were in the wrong place and flew away?

Offline Coyote

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2010, 06:22:47 am »
Even with something like Tsuhaylu I'm not sure people would "reset" they all clearly have unique personalities which are not something we are born with. Our genetics play a part in determining our temperament which shapes our personalities, but it is our daily experiences that really shape them.  
Not so much reset their individual personalities as much as reinforce the community-oriented priorities and identity for group survival.  Individuality is still valued, and thrives, but there is still the deeply embedded sense of "looking out for the good of the tribe". Or what we might call a strong sense of community spirit.



Quote from: A.A.Aaron
Maybe Jake's avatar body's odd (read as man-made) EM field threw off the navigation of the atokirina and they landed on him because they were 'confused'? Then they realized that they were in the wrong place and flew away?
It's possible, certainly, but that Jake ended up being the person they needed to help beat the RDA makes the 'coincidental' nature of the encounter a bit, well.... "too much coincidence", if you know what I mean. It would essentially be a sort of plot device used by Cameron that seems contrived, and not really his "style". Although it would be amusing to find out that the atokirina encounter was entirely coincidental based on Jake's unusual EM sig, and the whole thing was mistakenly overlaid with mystical interpretation by Mo'at-- and then Jake started to believe his own "destiny" and rose to the occasion.  :D

But then, was the atokirina that landed on Neytiri's arrow at just the right moment purely coincidental? That stacks significant coincidence upon significant coincidence, which starts to strain credulity and go back to the notion of a guiding force of some sort behind it.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 06:29:18 am by Coyote »
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!


VIDEO LOG DAY 8:
Attempted to pee on Viperwolf to test reaction. Please see attached medical file.
WARNING: Attached medical file exceeds gigabyte limit. System failure.

Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2010, 10:55:58 am »
*snip*
Quote from: A.A.Aaron
Maybe Jake's avatar body's odd (read as man-made) EM field threw off the navigation of the atokirina and they landed on him because they were 'confused'? Then they realized that they were in the wrong place and flew away?
It's possible, certainly, but that Jake ended up being the person they needed to help beat the RDA makes the 'coincidental' nature of the encounter a bit, well.... "too much coincidence", if you know what I mean. It would essentially be a sort of plot device used by Cameron that seems contrived, and not really his "style". Although it would be amusing to find out that the atokirina encounter was entirely coincidental based on Jake's unusual EM sig, and the whole thing was mistakenly overlaid with mystical interpretation by Mo'at-- and then Jake started to believe his own "destiny" and rose to the occasion.  :D
But then, was the atokirina that landed on Neytiri's arrow at just the right moment purely coincidental? That stacks significant coincidence upon significant coincidence, which starts to strain credulity and go back to the notion of a guiding force of some sort behind it.
Oh no, don't misunderstand! I believe that it was Jakes destiny to be Na'vi and to the catalyst behind the RDA being booted off of Pandora. I like to think that he was 'chosen' for the job. My theory regarding the atokirina was simply an attempt to explain the phenomenon through 'science'.  (term used very loosely)

« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 01:33:38 pm by A. A. Aaron »

Offline Toruk Makto

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2010, 12:02:21 pm »
... or SciFi.

I prefer to accept the story as presented, although it fun to think of other reasons. :)

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« Last Edit: January 24, 2010, 07:14:36 pm by Txepäsiyu »

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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi Afterlife
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2010, 12:58:14 pm »
... or SciFi.

I prefer to accept the stoRy as presented, although it fun to think of other reasons. :)

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Exactly.

 

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