Na'vi Afterlife

Started by Tìng Eywatikìte'e, January 19, 2010, 02:18:13 PM

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Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Well I don't think that the unusual EM could have come from him simply because he was in an Avatar body or else the same thing would have happened when all of the other Avatars entered the woods which would have made everything go differently.

It does bring me back to the point of him being destined to be Toruk Makto. Perhaps the same signal that the atokorina look for is the one meant to be chosen by Toruk.

As for one landing on Neytiri's bow...that's a bit trickier...
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


A. A. Aaron

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 25, 2010, 12:30:23 AM
Well I don't think that the unusual EM could have come from him simply because he was in an Avatar body or else the same thing would have happened when all of the other Avatars entered the woods which would have made everything go differently.

It does bring me back to the point of him being destined to be Toruk Makto. Perhaps the same signal that the atokorina look for is the one meant to be chosen by Toruk.

As for one landing on Neytiri's bow...that's a bit trickier...
Yes, you're absolutely right. So the question would be: What makes Jake different from everyone else? It's a stretch to come up with anything other than his destiny.

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Just random genetics? Some people have the right genes for the right EM? I mean there have been at least five before so he's not 100% unique, just 99.9999999%.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


A. A. Aaron

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 25, 2010, 12:42:22 AM
Just random genetics? Some people have the right genes for the right EM? I mean there have been at least five before so he's not 100% unique, just 99.9999999%.

Thats straining credulity, really. The odds of his avatar body and his brainwaves creating the correct EM field to attract the atokirina, and for him to be compatible with Toruk.....

Toruk Makto

 IMO, Eywa already knew Jake was different than the scientists and that he was a fearless warrior. This was learned by observing his actions on his first outing and his confrontation with the palulukan and aynantang. It was also obvious that a showdown was coming between the humans and the Na'vi, so the Great Mother took a chance that Jake could be enlightened and persuaded to fight for the Na'vi instead of against them using his "insider" knowledge of RDA strategy and capabilities. The Atokirina communicated this intention to Neytiri at the crucial decision points needed to get Jake to the Omatikaya alive and in a position to be trained to be one of the people for this.

To swerve back on topic, if Eywa is capable of this level of cognition, then it has to be more than just a bunch of memories that can just be randomly read back with tsahaylu at the Utral Aymokriyä. Perhaps it really is a collective consciousness that can think and act autonomously, although the individuals making up that consciousness are still independent within. True immortality in the afterlife, achieved by real biological processes. Wowsers!

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Eywal ngaru teing oeti

We talked in another thread about, if Eywa was real or just something else. I would say Eywa is real and alive like, and that she reached out to Jake even before he set foot on Pandora. I mean, how would those dreams of him flying all of sudden start and that's the only dream he has, so I would say that Eywa somehow reached out to him on Earth.

Txur’Itan

Maybe Eywa was an AI Singularity from an ancient civilisation, and was engineered to provide the existence we see on Pandora.  This could have formed or evolved from the Collective, or be a separate entity.

http://forum.learnnavi.org/the-movie(s)/avatar-trilogy/msg5478/#msg5478

If this is the case, there is much sway Eywa has over the actions of the people who provide her with respect and prayer.

If there was any reason to doubt that people could be satisfied with such a life, the Eywa constructors could very well have built a mechanism for making the consciousness of the Na'vi fundamentally immortal.
私は太った男だ。


Aziza

I think eywa is no different then God as we think of here on earth.

On earth, geographical features have created different races of humans,
each race percieved "God" in different ways, yet the principles are strangely all the same.

rather if it leads into islam, christianity, ect.

why would it be any different on Pandora?

If God is a Being, that means energy is a factor in this.
and energy cant be destroyed or created, and thats a scientific law.

ewya is God, in my opinion :P

hopefuly my opinion is not a sin.

Toruk Makto

Quote from: Aziza on January 28, 2010, 04:28:55 PM
I think eywa is no different then God as we think of here on earth.

On earth, geographical features have created different races of humans,
each race percieved "God" in different ways, yet the principles are strangely all the same.

rather if it leads into islam, christianity, ect.

why would it be any different on Pandora?

If God is a Being, that means energy is a factor in this.
and energy cant be destroyed or created, and thats a scientific law.

ewya is God, in my opinion :P

hopefuly my opinion is not a sin.

I invite and entreat you to see a post I made several weeks ago regarding faith. It's at http://forum.learnnavi.org/the-movie(s)/why-did-you-become-a-fan/msg4796/#msg4796

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 25, 2010, 12:30:23 AMAs for one landing on Neytiri's bow...that's a bit trickier...

Not necessarily, as Neytiri says in the movie; "I was going to kill him, but there was a sign from Eywa".

Just taking literally from the movie, the atokirina did seem to be the pure spirits Neytiri said, perhaps, these pure spirits saw what Jake would do for Pandora and gave Neytiri the signs she saw and set in motion the events of the movie.
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Txena Unil

An interesting thought: the atokirina are the tokens of dead Na'vi, bits of their life force and consciousness that remain after death (or are thrown back into Pandora from The Tree of Souls?).
Think of how attractive the idea of becoming a tree of voices must be for the Na'vi!  :D

Tsawke'ong

I love the idea that the Na'Vi continue to exist in a symbiotic relationship with Pandora through the atokirina after death. During the funeral scene (which makes me cry every time) it illustrates how powerful the transfer of energy is. The Na'Vi have such an altruistic relationship with life... it makes me sad that I can't live there.
"Every beauty which is seen here by persons of perception resembles more than anything else that celestial source from which we all are come."

Zefanaya

Kaltxi this has been in the back of my mind in recent days but I was wondering if the Na'vi have the concept of a hell?

let me know if there is already a thread about this


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Tsu'roen

I'd say to just vanish - to die without being able to upload into Eywa's combined memory. Remember the scene at the tree of Voices where Jake could actually hear the ancestors of the Omatikaya.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

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Txur’Itan

Quote from: Tirey Hawnuyu on February 03, 2010, 11:56:06 PM
Kaltxi this has been in the back of my mind in recent days but I was wondering if the Na'vi have the concept of a hell?

let me know if there is already a thread about this


Eywa ngahu

See afterlife thread.  This discussion belongs there I think.  But, this subject could be a specific focus in the thread.
私は太った男だ。


Tsawkeyä Unilyu

Quote from: Tsu'roen on February 04, 2010, 12:17:15 AM
I'd say to just vanish - to die without being able to upload into Eywa's combined memory. Remember the scene at the tree of Voices where Jake could actually hear the ancestors of the Omatikaya.

Yeah I think it would be very sad for deceased navi not to be with eywa and watch over the living.
"How much lab training have you had?"
     -Dr. Grace Augustine
"I dissected a frog once."
     -Jake Sully

Tsu'roen

Which brings up the following questions: where the spirits of the ancestors of the Omatikaya "saved" in the entire network of Eywa or only in the local utraya mokri (Tree of Voices) network node? And did they got lost when it was destroyed by the humans?
Has Eywa a redundant (holographic) memory or are specific memories/(parts of her) saved in specific locations?
In case of a holographic memory the destruction of the Tree of Voices or even the Tree of Souls - while tragic - wouldn't endanger the whole system. But if the different parts of Eywa's consciousness are tied to specific places then it would do great harm.
From the movie and Eywa's reaction to the thread to the Tree of Souls I got the impression the latter is the case.
So that would mean also all the Omatikaya spirits that where in the Tree of Voices are lost.     :'(
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

Txur’Itan

Thinking about what we were able to gain knowledge wise from the film, there is not much we can be certain of. The degree of that variation on possibilities is highly questionable, and any theory we have now could be turned on its head in the sequel.

However, if we think of Eywa as a brain, and extrapolate that Eywa is able to store individual beings in such a fashion as to "Hear a Crowd of voices, within Eywa" when they tsahaylu with the Tree of Voices, and whispers when at the Tree of Souls, tells me two things that there are local storage units, and regional variaitons on the access to their ancestors.

Eywa has redundant storage for herself, but may have limits on storage for the recorded memories of each individual Na'vi. Conversely, Eywa may integrate everything, store everything through the network, and be able to segregate it as necessary, and the trees are actually only access points. 

There are some fundamental issues here though.  Memories are more than electrical energy, there are physiological components of neurochemistry and synaptic alignment that determine the path and storage of memories in a single brain.  Even with the math given by Dr Augustine, the way the trees are networked could be every bit as important as what is transmitted through the network.

Building Hells Gate, the RDA mine, Killing home tree, and bulldozing the Trees of Voices was like causing Brian damage.  All of that has to have had an impact, either on the individuals who have been stored, or even the overall functioning of Eywa in some way.

Taking this to circle back to the topic, Analogy: if you were in heaven, and someone managed to successfully dynamite your home cloud ending your souls existence in heaven, what happens to you? 

I would say in terms of Eywa, if %10 of your memories were stored in a grove of trees, loosing any tree, could cause damage to those memories, maybe even erase all of those particular memories if they were dependant on that one tree.

私は太った男だ。


Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

Quote from: Tsu'roen on February 05, 2010, 07:17:05 PM
Which brings up the following questions: where the spirits of the ancestors of the Omatikaya "saved" in the entire network of Eywa or only in the local utraya mokri (Tree of Voices) network node? And did they got lost when it was destroyed by the humans?
Has Eywa a redundant (holographic) memory or are specific memories/(parts of her) saved in specific locations?
In case of a holographic memory the destruction of the Tree of Voices or even the Tree of Souls - while tragic - wouldn't endanger the whole system. But if the different parts of Eywa's consciousness are tied to specific places then it would do great harm.
From the movie and Eywa's reaction to the thread to the Tree of Souls I got the impression the latter is the case.
So that would mean also all the Omatikaya spirits that where in the Tree of Voices are lost.     :'(

I would certainly hope for the holographic memory theory, it would be tragic otherwise. But, thinking further, what if the Tree of Souls is like the storage area for all the clan's memories and if the RDA had destoyed the Tree of Souls, the entire system would be destroyed.
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Elektrolurch

I'd rather think, that, if it the Tree Of Souls would be destructed, the spirits would be all around the planet... somewhere in the network. Maybe they are everywhere at one and the same time. Because Eywa is everywhere?
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