Author Topic: Na'vi archery technique  (Read 18743 times)

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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2010, 11:22:17 am »
It's amazing what Avatar has made us get into. I may just need to take a weekend off and go camping someplace where I could play properly.
don't you live somewhere in the northwest tho? Not exactly camping weather right now....
I know, off topic.
But yes, between what we're thinking about and discussing, to what we're actually DOING, it's surprising what possibilities a movie is able to open us up to. 

Offline Txonyä'ite

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2010, 02:11:01 pm »
seriously,
i found myself considering trying my hand at making a Na'vi style bow until i realized i have no skill with woodworking whatsoever  ::)

Offline Technowraith

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2010, 10:43:10 pm »
seriously,
i found myself considering trying my hand at making a Na'vi style bow until i realized i have no skill with woodworking whatsoever  ::)

I've made a bow only once in my life. Didn't turn out perfect, but it's functional. I want to make a replica of the Eytukan's bow, which wouldn't be hard. It's based off a standard longbow which i could make with a little more practice. I don't know how to fletch arrows yet, so getting the right arrows might be a tad of a challenge.
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Offline Ayfa'liyä omumyu

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2010, 11:13:20 pm »
The archery of Avatar is something that drew (haha) my immediate notice, being an occasional archer myself. What I can say is thus:

1. It is stylized, and, like much of the rest of the film, is drawn from no one particular culture but strongly resembles Japanese Kyūdō in overall form.

2. The most striking feature of the Na'vi style is the inverted draw - thumb down, palm out. This is unconventional but not wholly impractical.

3. Unfortunately, while the Na'vi are drawing their bow left-handed, and using an inverted hand, they still have their arrow resting on the inside of the bow. This is incorrect. Because of their finger placement, they (or you or I, if we do it) will induce a twist on the string which will cause their arrow to continually fall of the rest. They should have the arrow on the outside of the bow when drawing as they are (the same as when using a Mongolian or thumb release and the opposite of when using a Mediterranean release). Envision the arrow shaft rotating towards the back of the string-hand and you will understand this.

4. As the Na'vi do not use an anchor point (that is, they hold the string overdrawn somewhere in space beside their head), combined with their inverted draw, there is little fear of the string interfering with their face/hair/ears on release (as can happen with a standard Kyūdō release). The downside is they should be less technically consistent. While I've not yet loosed an arrow in the Na'vi style, I have found that it is compatible with an anchor point. One can use the tip or flat of the thumb on the corner of the jaw if one wishes and not cause problems.

5. The arrows in particular are quite reminiscent of those I encountered in Peru and which are indeed common throughout South America among native archers. They have very long shafts, large fletchings, and wicked looking points, often with multiple barbs, depending on use. My user icon here actually depicts three of these I own myself (two point up, the third in the middle nock up). I can post full photos of these if there is interest.



« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 12:24:32 am by Ayfa'liyä omumyu »

Offline Theiran

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2010, 11:32:33 pm »
you could take a look at that stance she has in that picture anyway. look how far away her draw hand is away from her head.. as to where her other arm is straightened out. unless its the angle of the shot. this shot might  *helped*

but until the movie comes out and we are allowed to play and replay each archery scene to look at all these details... one could say it could still be done.  The Na'vi's way of archery.. not every shot in the movie.

Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2010, 12:25:54 am »
The archery of Avatar is something that drew (haha) my immediate notice, being an occasional archer myself. What I can say is thus:

1. It is stylized, and, like much of the rest of the film, is drawn from no one particular culture but strongly resembles Japanese Kyūdō in overall form.

2. The most striking feature of the Na'vi style is the inverted draw - thumb down, palm out. This is unconventional but not wholly impractical.

*snip*
5. The arrows in particular are quite reminiscent of those I encountered in Peru and which are indeed common throughout South America among native archers. They have very long shafts, large fletchings, and wicked looking points, often with multiple barbs, depending on use. My user icon here actually depicts three of these I own myself (two point up, the third in the middle nock up). I can post full photos of these if there is interest.


I'd be interested to see that. We need the DVD so we can get some screencaps showing the Na'vi arrows, to compare thier arrow designs to 'real rainforest native' designs.

Offline Eywa sìltsan

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2010, 05:05:04 am »
Actually I consider the way the Na'Vi launch there bow very practicle. It's nothing odd. I even say any other way of shooting a bow in that stance would be odd. I tried it myself. With the arm folded like that you just got more power in the hand to draw the string. When I turn my hand the other way around it starts to hurt, not if I hold it like shown in the picture.

Also you can see when Jake is learning how to probably use the bow, they're shooting the bow differently than, at least I am, used to be. They're not loading an arrow, taking aim, pull the string and shoot. It's more like they got an arrow ready, raise the bow while pulling the string and THEN they aim.

The stance Neytiri displays is much more comfortable if you need to aim. Her arm is folded and she hold the string with two fingers. The bonestructure supports the power your need to hold the string stretched. That way you won't shake much and your aiming is more true.

Did you noticed that Na'Vi rarely carry more than 3 Arrows? They have to fire with high accuracy.
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Offline mO_Tan

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2010, 07:35:24 am »
I have a friend that does archery (5th in the world, Compound division) and he holds his bow quite similiar to them (the Na'vi). Obviously not exactly the same, given that he uses a release and all, but he also pulls back his string with a strained wrist
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Offline Ayfa'liyä omumyu

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2010, 10:27:06 am »
Actually I consider the way the Na'Vi launch there bow very practicle. It's nothing odd.
The 15,000 years or so of human experience in the use of the bow tells otherwise. This is not to say that the Na'vi release is not possible or practical, but for humans at least, it can be safely said to not be the best. The proof for this is simple - over the span of human existence the inverted-hand draw has never (to my knowledge) been widely adopted by any culture. Given that humans are quite eager to explore more efficient means of killing, if it worked better to loose one's string that way, we can be assured it would have been.

Instead, we have variants upon the Mediterranean release principally in the Western hemisphere and the Turkic/Mongolian/thumb release in the East, though both styles turn up throughout the world, generally dependent on the use of the bow. Thumb releases are common among horse archers, as they permit the arrow to be lain on the outside of the bow, negating the need to run the arrow between stave and string when nocking (faster, easier to do while riding).

Also you can see when Jake is learning how to probably use the bow, they're shooting the bow differently than, at least I am, used to be. They're not loading an arrow, taking aim, pull the string and shoot. It's more like they got an arrow ready, raise the bow while pulling the string and THEN they aim.
This is for at least two reasons. Firstly, their style is based upon Japanese Kyūdō, which is often practiced in a very ritualized fashion, sometimes with a spiritual purpose or goal. It has very distinct phases of motion and rigourous movements, many of which are unique to Kyūdō. Secondly, it is being performed by actors, for a film. They have thus taken an already stylized form and further stylized it. They are not, in fact, practicing archery, but conveying a vision of it. They do this very effectively, and I do not mean this negatively in any way, but it is important to distinguish between the reality and the fantasy.

As far as aiming - instinctive archers, and I would count Kyūdō practitioners and the Na'vi among them, do not "aim," per-se. They instead focus intently on the target (often upon a specific point on the target, even down to  a single hair), and through much practice, are able to place the arrow there. Think of throwing a ball. You do not "aim" the ball, your body simply knows how to get it where you want it after many years of learned motion.

Did you noticed that Na'Vi rarely carry more than 3 Arrows? They have to fire with high accuracy.
Given the size of the arrow, carrying more would be impractical. Also, when hunting, one generally does not get off a second shot if the first misses, so more than two or three is not needed

I'd be interested to see that. We need the DVD so we can get some screencaps showing the Na'vi arrows, to compare thier arrow designs to 'real rainforest native' designs.
I screen-capped that image of Neytiri from the trailer. And below I have attached a photo of the Peruvian arrows I mentioned. They are, I believe, are from the Yine tribe, and I acquired them while in the Manu basin. According to CineFex issue #120, WETA "knew from the original concept illustrations that there were not going to be a lot of feathers on their creatures... so had to find something else with which to fletch the Na'vi arrows, [and] drawing on Pandoran plant life we'd seen in the artist's paintings... created highly believeable pieces of organic matter that could have, in theory, come from Pandora."



From top to bottom:
Two arrows for large game
Fletched end typical of all arrows shown (there is no nock)
Two arrows for large game (barbed)
An arrow for birds
An arrow for birds or fish
Overall sizes are around 60-65 inches (152-165 cm) in length.
I also have two Yine bows, which are of D-section and probably around 30-35 lbs. draw.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 10:30:33 am by Ayfa'liyä omumyu »

Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2010, 11:23:09 am »
That is so cool. :)
The heads of them look like they'd break quite easily if you missed your target. (Don't miss! making arrows is time consuming!)
That makes me wonder - Are the arrowheads on those replaceable at all? (could you cut off a broken one and bind / glue a new one in place without throwing the balance of the arrow off too much?)

Back to the movie arrows though - they looked to have stone arrowheads, possibly flint-knapped out of something like obsidian. Did anyone see anything different? Maybe they have different types? Wooden arrowheads for hunting small animals or 'fish' (what is aquatic life on Pandora like?) and maybe stone arrowheads in differing designs for war / killing aytawtute - something along those lines?

They'd need a heavy, stone arrowhead to penetrate the cockpit glass on the choppers. We saw how ineffective most of their arrows were against the 'dragon' gunship cockpit. (shooting up, against the downdraft of the rotor blades Vs. shooting down, death-from-above style and letting gravity do the work)

Offline gnátxere

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2010, 02:29:26 pm »
i believe the difference in success attacking the ships was purely angle, the glass at the bottom of the dragon's cockpit was curves or rounded a little bit so the arrows just got deflected aside, from above the arrows were hitting more of a flat surface they could actually hit instead of deflect off, notice aytukan told tsu'tey to get the ikran makto when the terrans destroy hometree, they just never get the chance to attack them back before running for their lives.

and the thread on wether na'vi use metal covers stone as well. last i read it the general understanding is that as na'vi have carbon fiber reinforced bones, it makes sense that other animals on pandora would as well, and that this would be stronger and easier to work with than any stone or metal, as well as being something they have anyways from their hunting so they don't have to desturb the forest digging up stone or ore for metal.

Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2010, 05:07:47 pm »
(snip)
Back to the movie arrows though - they looked to have stone arrowheads, possibly flint-knapped out of something like obsidian. Did anyone see anything different? Maybe they have different types? Wooden arrowheads for hunting small animals or 'fish' (what is aquatic life on Pandora like?) and maybe stone arrowheads in differing designs for war / killing aytawtute - something along those lines?

On page 70 of the ASG it has a very nice image of a "fishing arrow" with a tri-pronged tip (like the photograph above) but it also has extremely sharp barbs (like one of the other arrows above). The book goes on to mention that it is of course attached to a line to keep fish from swimming away. There was not a lot of talk about arrows in the ASG that i remember, but this definitely shows that they have, like Terran aboriginal tribes, developed tools "to suit the job," or "various arrows." Hope this helps :)
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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2010, 05:34:29 pm »
i believe the difference in success attacking the ships was purely angle, the glass at the bottom of the dragon's cockpit was curves or rounded a little bit so the arrows just got deflected aside, from above the arrows were hitting more of a flat surface they could actually hit instead of deflect off, *snip*
Yes. My point was more to emphasize the added penetrating power of a heavy, dense arrowhead working with inertia.

What I was thinking was this: The Na'vi would, as mentioned in the previous post, develop different types of arrowheads for different purposes. (like the fishing arrow) Some for hunting one type of game, some for another, some for fishing, some for practice, and perhaps even some for 'war' or attcking the aytawtute. A normal hunting arrow might not penetrate the gear of an RDA soldier (could be deflected by something as simple as an assault rifle magazine in the pouches on their tactical gear and I'm pretty sure that I saw some body armor worn in the movie), so they might make arrows with tougher heads for that purpose.

I think that when the Na'vi were firing at the dragon gunship during the attack on Hometree, they were just firing whatever they had at hand. There was no way that they were going to penetrate. I also wouldn't be surprised if Jake didn't give them some pointers before the final battle. He would be familiar with kinetic energy or gravity-assisted weapons and would know where to hit the choppers to acheive the best effect. (We need to make heavier arrows with strong heads, and fire down on them, aiming for the sky person inside. Our heavy arrows will break through and kill them.)

Offline Technowraith

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2010, 11:19:25 pm »

Back to the movie arrows though - they looked to have stone arrowheads, possibly flint-knapped out of something like obsidian. Did anyone see anything different? Maybe they have different types? Wooden arrowheads for hunting small animals or 'fish' (what is aquatic life on Pandora like?) and maybe stone arrowheads in differing designs for war / killing aytawtute - something along those lines?

They'd need a heavy, stone arrowhead to penetrate the cockpit glass on the choppers. We saw how ineffective most of their arrows were against the 'dragon' gunship cockpit. (shooting up, against the downdraft of the rotor blades Vs. shooting down, death-from-above style and letting gravity do the work)

Willing to bet some of the arrowhead are bone and some are stone. Though from i've seen, i haven't noticed any area for working stone or any tools for working stone. But then again, we haven't seen how the Na'vi manufacture their weapons.
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Offline Kaltxì Palulukan!

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2010, 12:08:40 am »
Willing to bet some of the arrowhead are bone and some are stone. Though from i've seen, i haven't noticed any area for working stone or any tools for working stone. But then again, we haven't seen how the Na'vi manufacture their weapons.

You bring up a good point. We know of the loom (advanced woodworking and weaving skills) and of the pottery another clan is well-known for. While these two do not directly point to stone-working abilities, it seems eminently probable (especially in the pottery clan) that firing clay (and possibly kiln building) is a "known skill," which could point to stone shaping, as it is along the same basic though processes and skill set.

Just thots.  :-\
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Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2010, 12:28:22 am »

Back to the movie arrows though - they looked to have stone arrowheads, possibly flint-knapped out of something like obsidian. Did anyone see anything different? Maybe they have different types? Wooden arrowheads for hunting small animals or 'fish' (what is aquatic life on Pandora like?) and maybe stone arrowheads in differing designs for war / killing aytawtute - something along those lines?

They'd need a heavy, stone arrowhead to penetrate the cockpit glass on the choppers. We saw how ineffective most of their arrows were against the 'dragon' gunship cockpit. (shooting up, against the downdraft of the rotor blades Vs. shooting down, death-from-above style and letting gravity do the work)

Willing to bet some of the arrowhead are bone and some are stone. Though from i've seen, i haven't noticed any area for working stone or any tools for working stone. But then again, we haven't seen how the Na'vi manufacture their weapons.
I'm not an expert on the subject and I may be completely wrong, but I beleive that flint-knapping only really requires a 'hammer' stone for the rough shaping of the stone being worked, and a tool like an antler point for the final shaping and creating the cutting edges of the arrowhead. It's a time consuming process, to be sure, but it doesn't involve much tooling.

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2010, 12:29:58 am »

Back to the movie arrows though - they looked to have stone arrowheads, possibly flint-knapped out of something like obsidian. Did anyone see anything different? Maybe they have different types? Wooden arrowheads for hunting small animals or 'fish' (what is aquatic life on Pandora like?) and maybe stone arrowheads in differing designs for war / killing aytawtute - something along those lines?

They'd need a heavy, stone arrowhead to penetrate the cockpit glass on the choppers. We saw how ineffective most of their arrows were against the 'dragon' gunship cockpit. (shooting up, against the downdraft of the rotor blades Vs. shooting down, death-from-above style and letting gravity do the work)

Willing to bet some of the arrowhead are bone and some are stone. Though from i've seen, i haven't noticed any area for working stone or any tools for working stone. But then again, we haven't seen how the Na'vi manufacture their weapons.
I'm not an expert on the subject and I may be completely wrong, but I beleive that flint-knapping only really requires a 'hammer' stone for the rough shaping of the stone being worked, and a tool like an antler point for the final shaping and creating the cutting edges of the arrowhead. It's a time consuming process, to be sure, but it doesn't involve much tooling.

(Assuming they have flint--and why not? They have fire, so it is a strong possibility) I would have to agree with your conclusion. The video on archery earlier in this thread showed just that.
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Offline Ayfa'liyä omumyu

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2010, 12:31:29 am »
Willing to bet some of the arrowhead are bone and some are stone. Though from i've seen, i haven't noticed any area for working stone or any tools for working stone. But then again, we haven't seen how the Na'vi manufacture their weapons.

You bring up a good point. We know of the loom (advanced woodworking and weaving skills) and of the pottery another clan is well-known for. While these two do not directly point to stone-working abilities, it seems eminently probable (especially in the pottery clan) that firing clay (and possibly kiln building) is a "known skill," which could point to stone shaping, as it is along the same basic though processes and skill set.

Whether or not the Na'vi work stone isn't even really up for debate, in my mind. First of all, Cameron has described them himself as Neolithic, which pretty much gives us a solid understanding that they work stone, undoubtedly expertly. In Terran terms, by the Neolithic period, humans had already been working stone for well over two million years.

Beyond that... they are using bows. How do you suppose they've fashioned them? They had to cut the wood, shape it, perhaps scrape sinews, and perform a myriad of other tasks on the way to crafting the bow itself which necessitates the use of a fine edge - as may be provided with the minimal equivalent of a stone tool. If they did not already have the technological foundation to make bows then we would expect to see more slings and atlatls or the like, all other factors aside.

Offline A. A. Aaron

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2010, 12:39:04 am »
Willing to bet some of the arrowhead are bone and some are stone. Though from i've seen, i haven't noticed any area for working stone or any tools for working stone. But then again, we haven't seen how the Na'vi manufacture their weapons.

You bring up a good point. We know of the loom (advanced woodworking and weaving skills) and of the pottery another clan is well-known for. While these two do not directly point to stone-working abilities, it seems eminently probable (especially in the pottery clan) that firing clay (and possibly kiln building) is a "known skill," which could point to stone shaping, as it is along the same basic though processes and skill set.

Whether or not the Na'vi work stone isn't even really up for debate, in my mind. First of all, Cameron has described them himself as Neolithic, which pretty much gives us a solid understanding that they work stone, undoubtedly expertly. In Terran terms, by the Neolithic period, humans had already been working stone for well over two million years.

Beyond that... they are using bows. How do you suppose they've fashioned them? They had to cut the wood, shape it, perhaps scrape sinews, and perform a myriad of other tasks on the way to crafting the bow itself which necessitates the use of a fine edge - as may be provided with the minimal equivalent of a stone tool. If they did not already have the technological foundation to make bows then we would expect to see more slings and atlatls or the like, all other factors aside.
Does anyone know anything about making bows? Aren't they laminated wood? That would be tough to produce. Tough, but nothing is impossible.

Offline Ayfa'liyä omumyu

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Re: Na'vi archery technique
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2010, 12:57:32 am »
Does anyone know anything about making bows? Aren't they laminated wood? That would be tough to produce. Tough, but nothing is impossible.
Yes, and not necessarily. Bowmaking as an extensive topic that can not hoped to be fully covered here, so I recommend doing some reading on the topic if you're interested. The Traditional Bowyers Bible series and Primitive Archer are good sources.

The type of material and construction used varies as widely as there are woods and places in the world to find it - and in some where you can't. Self-bows of wood are generally the simplest, though bundle-bows are about as primitive as you can go. From there you can get into various laminates, adding material to the back, belly, or both sides of the bow to enhance performance (stretchy materials, such as sinew, to the back, compressible materials, such as horn, to the belly). These eventually lead to composite bows, which can become very elaborate to manufacture.

 

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