Na'vi couples...hetro, homo etc/.

Started by 'Ì'awn Menari, August 22, 2010, 08:18:32 AM

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bommel

I don't know... but I won't wonder myself if they don't care

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

I've also thought of this question, since i've never heard of any gay Na'vi or seen them in the movie. But then again, many films which takes place on Earth doesn't show gay people either so i don't know...

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Ekirä

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on August 27, 2010, 10:04:10 AM
Hell, nature didn't even intend that love would even exist!

I have to disagree with that.....why wouldn't nature intend love to exist? It's quite possible that nature made some of the more advanced animals (humans) be able to 'love' so that we wouldn't be constantly killing each other. It's basically a survival technique.

This is only my opinion, I'd be open to hear what others would think.

Amaya

actually, I hate to contradict you, but homosexual relationships occur in many species other than humans.  Bononbo (pygmy) chimps and dolphins in particular are well-documented for this non-reproductive social behaviour.  I, myself, had a (male) dog and a (male) cat (both neutered at around 6 months old) who enjoyed a little mutual pleasure.  So yes, it is as "natural" as any other behaviour.

wm.annis

#24
Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on August 27, 2010, 10:04:10 AMI'm sorry to say this, but homosexuality isn't ``natural´´, since nature didn't intend that two people of the same sex would fall in love.

There is a very common misconception about "nature" and, indirectly or directly, about evolution, that comes up in this discussion.  Most of us think of evolution happening at the level of the individual, and that anything that prevents an individual from reproducing must therefore be unnatural and prone to culling by evolution.  But, while individuals are subject to natural selection, it is not individuals that evolve but genes.

If a gene confers advantage in most individuals it will persist in a population even when that gene causes reproductive disadvantage in some.  A classic example of this is sickle cell anemia, where the correct dose confers resistance to malaria, but the wrong dose is a serious health problem.  The mutation in Tay-Sachs might confer resistance to TB (but there are other theories about that, FYI).  So, it's entirely possible to conceive of a genetic component to homosexuality that is both "natural" (in the sense of being at least in part an inherent, genetic trait) while still conferring serious reproductive unfitness.  So long as the genes involved are a benefit to people most of the time, the smaller number of times it's trouble won't be enough to remove the gene(s) from the population.

(I keep using the idea "genetic component" because in humans to speak of "nature vs. nurture" is meaningless gibberish — our DNA is constantly interacting with our environment.)

Ekirä

Quote from: Amaya on August 27, 2010, 10:17:44 AM
actually, I hate to contradict you, but homosexual relationships occur in many species other than humans.  Bononbo (pygmy) chimps and dolphins in particular are well-documented for this non-reproductive social behaviour.  I, myself, had a (male) dog and a (male) cat (both neutered at around 6 months old) who enjoyed a little mutual pleasure.  So yes, it is as "natural" as any other behaviour.

Absolutely. I love the kid's book "And Tango Makes Three", because it's a perfect example of that and is actually very well written.

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on August 27, 2010, 10:04:10 AM
I've also thought of this question, since i've never heard of any gay Na'vi or seen them in the movie. But then again, many films which takes place on Earth doesn't show gay people either so i don't know...

Warning! The following text may offend some readers. Viewer discretion is advised!



I'm going to have to disagree, homosexuality is natural, as has been mentioned, homosexuality is well documented in the animal kingdom both in wild and domesticated populations (indeed there was a sheep farmer whose herd shrunk significantly in only a few years because a large proportion of his male sheep were homosexual) and there are some arguments that it could be an evolutionary backlash against overpopulation (in which case you'd expect large cities to have higher proportions of gay people than the countryside - and guess what. They generally do).

Indeed, love itself is only a product of evolution because it encourages the male to stick around and help raise his child which increases the likelihood of the male's genes surviving for another generation. So you're right that homosexuality is as natural as love which is 100%.

Lastly, nature doesn't intend things, evolution is blind.
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Eyamsiyu

I really hope this doesn't become engulfed in flames...

All I truly say and keep saying is that it doesn't matter if there are or aren't homosexual Na'vi: they still kick a**.


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Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

I understand (ay)your reactions and views on this matter. I'm just thinking very crude here. The way i see it, nature didn't ``intend´´ anything else than reproducing for the survival of the species. However i must say, some of your views are quite interesting (i.e. the part where ``Love is a behaviour created to prevent advanced animals from constanly killing each other´´). I believe that, until we can see inside the minds of other animals (Through Tsaheylu  ;D?, we can't know for sure that they precive love the way we do.
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Muzer

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on August 28, 2010, 02:26:36 AM
I understand (ay)your reactions and views on this matter. I'm just thinking very crude here. The way i see it, nature didn't ``intend´´ anything else than reproducing for the survival of the species. However i must say, some of your views are quite interesting (i.e. the part where ``Love is a behaviour created to prevent advanced animals from constanly killing each other´´). I believe that, until we can see inside the minds of other animals (Through Tsaheylu  ;D?, we can't know for sure that they precive love the way we do.

No. Reproduction is "for" survival of genes as a whole. As has been said, if a gene benefits individuals' reproductive successes most of the time, but puts it at a disadvantage a small proportion of the time ( that is, through homosexuality), it will still flourish in the gene pool.

If you would like further information on this matter, I advise you to read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins, which, although a little out-of-date in places (usually rectified through footnotes), is still a good book to dispel the myth of evolution being for the good of the species.
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on August 28, 2010, 02:26:36 AM
I understand (ay)your reactions and views on this matter. I'm just thinking very crude here. The way i see it, nature didn't ``intend´´ anything else than reproducing for the survival of the species.

Nature doesn't intend things. Genes mutate and, once that mutation has a quorum it will either be selected for if it benefits the majority or be selected against if it is detrimental to the majority (before a quorum is reached it is more important about whether it benefits individuals' reproductive chances).

So, if say a trait that harms reproductive chance (for example homosexuality although it could be a low sperm count, significantly low sex hormone levels etc.) was the product of a gene when people had two mutated versions of it but had the opposite affect when people only had one mutated version it would be selected for as, even though it harms the reproductive chances of 25% of the population because it benefits the reproductive chances of 50%.

Now most large scale traits like this are the product of a specific combination of several genes and so the probabilities can be much more varied but the point still stands. A gene can harm a large number of its carriers, but if it benefits the majority it will be selected for.




If you want even more detail, this isn't always the case.

If you have a set of genes that are a mild inconvenience to the majority but a huge benefit to a minority then it will probably be selected for because the increase in the few's reproductive chances is greater than the reduction in the many's.
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Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

Interesting theory, ma Kewnya. Btw, when i say nature ``intends´´ things, don't really mean it but i have no better way of trying to explain how the genes mutate in a certain direction collectively (it's almost like a goal.Almost).
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Txur’Itan

#32
The short answer is no one knows except for James Cameron if there homosexual Na'vi or exclusively heterosexual Na'vi.  

There are not solidly agreed upon rules for the existence of either set of couple types.  Considering the complexity of the discussion with what is known for human coupling, it is best left to James Cameron to formulate something if he chooses about the Na'vi at this phase of their evolution.  We may find out that the difference in genders is a matter of changing diet, and Jake could end up eating sex change food.  

In humans, the "default" processes of reproduction result in an individual with female characteristics.  Hormones are introduced to create males if necessary.

For the Na'vi, there are likely some deeply spiritualistic rules for pairing off couples, regardless of gender preference.  Without rules, selecting someone to be mated for life seems pointless, unless it has some form of biological component forcing it to occur.  Biology is fickle, and we need much more that a short phrase to explain it away.

That said, there is no record or evidence of anything other than heterosexual copulation, we will probably have to wait for further information from the next two movies, or the J.C. books before anything can be more certain.

There was another thread, but it became unfriendly because of the lack of proof in support of one opinion versus another, so it was locked.  Here is a link...

http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-customs-and-culture/can-navi-be-homosexual/

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Elektrolurch

Na'vi can be homosexual, sure. They're more pansexual... If you want, I'm a homosexual Na'vi.
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Elektrolurch

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Ku'rända

Quote from: Virid'ian on September 09, 2010, 10:12:30 AM
Quote from: Ikranari on September 09, 2010, 10:09:04 AM
... but you gays ...

Call me lesbian. ;)

Hi, lesbian :B

Hmm, I dunno if it's been mention (I really could care less about reading all through the posts.. xD)  But as far as humans go.  Many Tribal peoples (ie: Native North American or African) were not ignorant to same-sex couples in daily life.  Most of it was accepted.  It was only until the Europeans came with the Vatican saying "omg gay=bad, you go to hell now" which really shifted the mindset from what it was back then, to today's beliefs.

Give us a chance, MORON!

Muzer

Yeah - bloody Christians, pushing everyone around as usual.
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

QuoteYeah - bloody Christians, pushing everyone around as usual.

Especially the bloody pope, who thinks he can do and say whatever he wants, because he's ``Chosen by God´´.

I don't have a grudge agianst christianty or any other religion. I'm just saying that i think people should be more careful about their beliefs and not listen to some fanatical old man who claims he's a prophet.
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kewnya txamew'itan

Now, now. Let's not turn this into a flame-the-Christians thread.
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Eyamsiyu

Yeah... I might have my feelings hurt. ;)

Seriously, I really do apologize in the place of them.  We Christians are the worst at letting people be when you say "no."

Not going to lie: I was in church a while back and there was a guest speaker, and to paraphrase what he said: "forget all this new-age live at peace crap because it is not good.  It's not okay to just let people believe whatever."  And I never felt more enraged at what he said.

Just letting you know, even as a Christian, I'm on your side...

ANYWAY! Back to topic...

Yes, they probably exist in their culture.  How they deal with it?  Not sure at all.


"... The only people that are going to have a chance to make a living playing music is the people who do exactly what they believe in ... they have to believe in this so much that they are ready to die for it." - Jojo Mayer

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