Na'vi couples...hetro, homo etc/.

Started by 'Ì'awn Menari, August 22, 2010, 08:18:32 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Mesireatu

Kaltxì ma frapo!
Oel kameie ayngati! Why don't you learn from the Na'vi? I don't hate men, I just don't want to have sex with them! So, please stop your nasty/mean mails to me! Eywa ayngahu Kìyevame
Varför minns jag alla dåliga vitsar, men glömmer alla infix i Na'vi?? ???
Why do I remember all bad jokes, but forget all the infixes in Na'vi?? :-[

Jag älskar dig, Sara L!!
Nga yawne lu oer, Sara L!!

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Il Sogno Viandante on June 12, 2013, 09:51:07 PM
Kaltxì ma frapo!
Oel kameie ayngati! Why don't you learn from the Na'vi? I don't hate men, I just don't want to have sex with them! So, please stop your nasty/mean mails to me! Eywa ayngahu Kìyevame

O__o :o

I'm not sure who sent horrible things to you, but it certainly wasn't me. I would also imagine it wasn't anyone who has been commenting in this thread recently, because  I think every one of us thus far has had a tolerant/accepting attitude. :-\

I'm sorry to hear that someone is giving you a hard time. :(

Niri Te

Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Eana Unil

Mllte nìteng, I didn't expect some of this community to be able to write such things.  :-\ Yewla.

Tirea Aean

Oh. I See the reference. It's in the LEP Anonymous Submissions board.

One person objected to having the word gay/lesbian, because they didn't like the idea. In my opinion they didn't phrase the message how it was intended to come out. I can kinda see how it would have been offensive. But then people started giving legitimate reasons why it shouldn't be a word, not based on hate towards gays. :-\

I agree with the person who said something like Why treat gay couples differently or give them a label to separate them out? That's my opinion too.

Eana Unil

That's my opinion too, a 100%, but I wrote "Maybe the Na'vi needed a word for the earthen word gay, after they met humans on Pandora and after they noticed that humans unfortunately have a word for it" nonetheless, because we even have a word for blog, post, beer, book and airship, maybe even lie some day in the future, because humans do lie, so why not gay as well.  :-\

Mesireatu

Kaltxì ma frapo!
Oel kameie ayngati! Here is a mail I sent to new word suggestions..

Oel kameie ngati! Irayo! I sent this to the anomys(?) forum where they want new words..

Kaltxì ma frapo!
Oel kamiee ayngati!
Two new words, I guess/hope..
Metutéyawne Lesbian
Metutanyawne Gay men
Yes, it's only a suggestion.. Ewya ngahu Kìyevame

And they can't understand why there will be words for it. Yes, I'm both sad and upset.  Both James C. and Paul F. are gays and they said just because they're gay and haven't word for it should be a proof that that's no need for it. Yes, you can see for yourself in the thread. My thought was two-woman-love and two-man-love..
What if someone have a word for "car"?? Will they deny it too, because there are no cars on Pandora? Eywa ayngahu & Kìyevame
Varför minns jag alla dåliga vitsar, men glömmer alla infix i Na'vi?? ???
Why do I remember all bad jokes, but forget all the infixes in Na'vi?? :-[

Jag älskar dig, Sara L!!
Nga yawne lu oer, Sara L!!

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Eana Unil on June 13, 2013, 07:14:34 AM
That's my opinion too, a 100%, but I wrote "Maybe the Na'vi needed a word for the earthen word gay, after they met humans on Pandora and after they noticed that humans unfortunately have a word for it" nonetheless, because we even have a word for blog, post, beer, book and airship, maybe even lie some day in the future, because humans do lie, so why not gay as well.  :-\

Sure. But then it would follow suit as "kxey" or "Lespiyen" or something. ???

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Il Sogno Viandante on June 13, 2013, 07:21:22 AM
Kaltxì ma frapo!
Oel kameie ngati! Irayo! I sent this to the anomys(?) forum where they want new words..

That means that you are not supposed to reveal who you are and what you post there. ::) :D It's in the agreement that all suggestions there are supposed to remain anonymous. :-\

But yeah. I don't know. I really don't think too much parallel is between gay and cars. Car is something completely alien to Pandora. We know that homosexuality exists there and is not uncommon. So it's not at all an alien concept. I just think that the gay Na'vi are thought of as equals and are not called out by a label. If there happens to exist a word for this in the future, then ok. That will be fine. I would not really have a problem with that, but kinda wonder a little bit.

Tìtstewan

I just write this:
Quote from: Anonymous LEP Submission on June 13, 2013, 03:02:13 AM
The question is, how often it will happen that cause (Jake and Tsu'tey or X an Y fell in love) to have a word for it? If it is normal, they will have a word for it certainly, but if is a very rare constellation or exception, have the Na'vi a word for it?

This is more a question with a culture relevance, and I think we can't create a word easily which need a cultural background about the Na'vi. Or I see it wrong? :-\

-| Na'vi Vocab + Audio | Na'viteri as one HTML file | FAQ | Useful Links for Beginners |-
-| Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Tirea Aean

#230
Quote from: Tìtstewan on June 13, 2013, 07:29:31 AM
I just write this:
Quote from: Anonymous LEP Submission on June 13, 2013, 03:02:13 AM
The question is, how often it will happen that cause (Jake and Tsu'tey or X an Y fell in love) to have a word for it? If it is normal, they will have a word for it certainly, but if is a very rare constellation or exception, have the Na'vi a word for it?

This is more a question with a culture relevance, and I think we can't create a word easily which need a cultural background about the Na'vi. Or I see it wrong? :-\


True.. Words that have deep roots in the culture cannot be created, unless we have lots of hard evidence about that bit of culture. Mostly, we don't get close to culture stuff when coming up with new words. So right now, until we know for sure the Na'vi ideology about homo/heterosexuality we can't really assume. I've made a huge assumtion just now in my previous post. I could be totally wrong. So I can't really say that we can make a word for this right now. But assuming we can, I used the argument that it's not totally necessary. Gender never has been a huge deal in the Na'vi language. So I figured (assumed) why would sexuality? BUT What if sexuality is a huge deal and ends up having lots of related words? Only James Cameron can decide this.

I hate to say it, but these words might end up being declined. At least for now. But Not because the LEP committee hates homosexuals (they don't). But because James Cameron has not yet totally revealed the Na'vi culture / way of thinking when it comes to this huge society issue.

Kamean

Quote from: Tirea Aean on June 13, 2013, 06:37:03 AM
So, please stop your nasty/mean mails to me! Eywa ayngahu Kìyevame
QuoteI'm not sure who sent horrible things to you, but it certainly wasn't me.
I also didn't write to you.
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Tìtstewan

Quote from: Il Sogno Viandante on June 12, 2013, 09:51:07 PM
Kaltxì ma frapo!
Oel kameie ayngati! Why don't you learn from the Na'vi? I don't hate men, I just don't want to have sex with them! So, please stop your nasty/mean mails to me! Eywa ayngahu Kìyevame
It would be a good idea to hide your email adress. If you got nasty/mean PMs, you can report it to the admin.

-| Na'vi Vocab + Audio | Na'viteri as one HTML file | FAQ | Useful Links for Beginners |-
-| Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Ftiafpi

Quote from: Il Sogno Viandante on June 12, 2013, 09:51:07 PM
Kaltxì ma frapo!
Oel kameie ayngati! Why don't you learn from the Na'vi? I don't hate men, I just don't want to have sex with them! So, please stop your nasty/mean mails to me! Eywa ayngahu Kìyevame

I've sent you a PM regarding this, please check your messages and reply back to me.

Anyone interested please reference the LearnNavi.org Forum Rules. Per those rules such actions as described by Il Sogno Viandante are a ban-able offense and will not be tolerated on this forum.

Carry on.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Any one who posts word ideas needs to realize that the board of editors tends to be rather conservative, not in political worldview, but in what makes for a good word idea and what doesn't. This skepticism should not be taken the wrong way, as this is expected behavior, based on the charter of the board of editors. In this particular case being discussed here, it ventures deep into Cameronian territory, as many aspects of sexual behavior is deeply cultural. Without some sort of a confirmation about sexual activity among the Na'vi (beyond what we can clearly deduce from the film), words like this have a lot less chance of being accepted.

An unofficial word you can use for 'car' is pa'li lefngap.

I am trying to think of a real-world biologic parallel to the three-way tsaheylu that was being discussed. There really isn't one, and I suspect there isn't one on Pandora, either. The way the brain works (which has to be similar in the Na'vi because of our similar biology), some three way communication is likely to occur, but it is likely to be very confusing to all three entities involved. It could possibly even be dangerous because of the ability of the tsaheylu bond to control or monitor some lower-level bodily functions. That said, I bet there are 'biologic safeties' built into the bonding algorithms that severely limit or prevent external control that is life-threatening. We do have one interesting example of 'group tsaheylu' in the film, but this is mediated through 'Eywa' in the roots that everyone was connected to.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Ftiafpi

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on June 15, 2013, 04:39:19 AM
Any one who posts word ideas needs to realize that the board of editors tends to be rather conservative, not in political worldview, but in what makes for a good word idea and what doesn't. This skepticism should not be taken the wrong way, as this is expected behavior, based on the charter of the board of editors. In this particular case being discussed here, it ventures deep into Cameronian territory, as many aspects of sexual behavior is deeply cultural. Without some sort of a confirmation about sexual activity among the Na'vi (beyond what we can clearly deduce from the film), words like this have a lot less chance of being accepted.

An unofficial word you can use for 'car' is pa'li lefngap.

I am trying to think of a real-world biologic parallel to the three-way tsaheylu that was being discussed. There really isn't one, and I suspect there isn't one on Pandora, either. The way the brain works (which has to be similar in the Na'vi because of our similar biology), some three way communication is likely to occur, but it is likely to be very confusing to all three entities involved. It could possibly even be dangerous because of the ability of the tsaheylu bond to control or monitor some lower-level bodily functions. That said, I bet there are 'biologic safeties' built into the bonding algorithms that severely limit or prevent external control that is life-threatening. We do have one interesting example of 'group tsaheylu' in the film, but this is mediated through 'Eywa' in the roots that everyone was connected to.

Did you post this in the wrong topic? I think you meant for this to go in the LEP board.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Ma Ftiafpi, I put this post here to help qwell the rather heated discussion that had popped up here, and help newcomers understand that the LEP works a little differently than what most newcomers think. I also think that the discussion of this same topic on the LEP had also gotten out of hand, and had gotten to a point it really didn't belong there. So thus the decision to post here, even though it would have been appropriate there as well. So, I apologize if this seemed OT here.

But I did discuss the topic of 3-way tsaheylu here, which is topical ;) The more I am thinking about it, the less I think it would work at all, from a biological and 'data processing' perspective. The tswin I think, is really designed to bind with just one other entity. The 'logic' associated with its function would bind with the first entity to bind with it. I think a full exploration the biocybernetics of tsaheylu (including the possibility of bonding with an artificial device) is the topic for a different thread.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Mouse

#237
Sorry I couldn't help but post as I'm just joining and saw the topic and as an enrolled tribal citizen of the aniyunwiya nation I couldn't help but want to add my thoughts here as someone mentioned earlier our native concepts. Forgive me I tried to read all 12 pages but i hadn't actually seen anything comparing language and culture directly or break down or expand our native concepts in this category.

The first thing we do with a question as native people is look to our elders and our language, if it doesn't exist in either of those areas then it never did. In this case we are dealing with a new language.  With that being said there are over 122 traditional words that describe "Two-Spirit" (LGBT people who were native) Please note Two Spirit is a contemporary term coined in the 80's to be used as a tool to help other native people find people like them that are culturally active and also happen to be Lgbtqa* as the " berdache" term is derogitroy in this day and age as it really translates to "man servant"

I would suspect that like many indigenous people being homo/trans/etc was just another factor of life. I can not speak for every native person, I can only speak for Cherokee, Chowanoke, Choctaw, lakota traditions because that's how I was raised and I also happen to be "Two-Spirit" though I prefer Nudale Asgaya (but I doubt you would know how to say it or remember it as easily as two-spirit) I can also say that all native families have their own beliefs customs etc but for the most part in most indigenous cultures it was not frowned upon until colonization and of course the churches came (but that is another story)

Traditionally Nudale asgaya/winkte/sgigi/denowipe/nudle...The list goes on...... "two-spirit" people were counselors, medicine people, warriors, craftsmen of the highest regard, adoptive parents and mostly considered lucky to have around as they could do male and female work and therefore get twice as much done. As artists we were allowed to mix mediums as most mediums for are were gender bound. Many warchiefs and council members have secret names gifted to them by a two-spirit person that was to protect them against harm in battle etc. I could really go on here but will refrain. Because the term "two-Spirit" Comes with cultural and religious responsibility it's important to acknowledge and respect that. For example some coming of age ceremonies for a two-spirit person require to give flesh offerings at ceremony.... So, you could imagine how frustrating it would be to study and literally have to give a flesh offering to use the word and then someone comes along just using it because they think it "sounds nice" so please be respectful as many people (such as myself) Take our cultural responsibility very seriously.

With all that being said, as regards to language and the topic, in the Cherokee way we have 13 different words just within our language (no i'm not going to post a 3 page essay here on them)... When the settlers came over they demanded to know why men were living with men, women with women, and of course why some people's gender identity did not always match their parts. So for Cherokee people we struggled to come up with words to describe something that was just another relationship to us everytime someone new visited.... So therefore 13 different words were recorded that somehow separated us as a different kind of person/relationship when before we were just part of the people....  So that brings up the question... Is Na'Vi inclusive? or exclusive? I think to put a word for someone who is "different" is going to set them apart. It is my opinion but there is no need to say "gay relationship" or "straight relationship" it is just a "relationship" to be treated equally. My people lasted thousands of years without having a word for it but allowing it... I don't see the Na'Vi language chopping up the people like that.

Comparing language of course Cherokee language has no gender, it is inclusive, not exclusive. It is a descriptive language so things and people do not get left out.... If I were to give an opinion based on the facts of what I have seen and read about the culture the language of Na'vi, the people would be inclusive and of course... As native people, they don't waste energy, they don't waste food, so why then... would they waste love? or waste the value of a productive and caring individual and to extend on... a relationship? Two-Spirit people have a place among our native people... It would be hard for me to think that we wouldn't have a place in the amazing world of Avatar... To which many native values have been studied and woven into the concepts.... Including but not limited to... The language.

Hope this helps.


Tirea Aean

Quote from: Mouse on February 26, 2017, 06:48:12 PM
Sorry I couldn't help but post as I'm just joining and saw the topic and as an enrolled tribal citizen of the aniyunwiya nation I couldn't help but want to add my thoughts here as someone mentioned earlier our native concepts. (Forgive me I didn't read all 12 pages so if I do repeat what someone else already clarified I do apologize)

The first thing we do with a question as native people is look to our elders and our language, if it doesn't exist in either of those areas then it never did. In this case we are dealing with a new language.  With that being said there are over 122 traditional words that describe "Two-Spirit" (LGBT people who were native) Please note Two Spirit is a contemporary term coined in the 80's to be used as a tool to help other native people find people like them that are culturally active and also happen to be Lgbtqa* as the " berdache" term is derogitroy in this day and age as it really translates to "man servant"

I would suspect that like many indigenous people being homo/trans/etc was just another factor of life. I can not speak for every native person, I can only speak for Cherokee, Chowanoke, Choctaw, lakota traditions because that's how I was raised and I also happen to be "Two-Spirit" though I prefer Nudale Asgaya (but I doubt you would know how to say it or remember it as easily as two-spirit) I can also say that all native families have their own beliefs customs etc but for the most part in most indigenous cultures it was not frowned upon until colonization and of course the churches came (but that is another story)

Traditionally Nudale asgaya/winkte/sgigi/denowipe/nudle...The list goes on...... "two-spirit" people were counselors, medicine people, warriors, craftsmen of the highest regard, adoptive parents and mostly considered lucky to have around as they could do male and female work and therefore get twice as much done. As artists we were allowed to mix mediums as most mediums for are were gender bound. Many warchiefs and council members have secret names gifted to them by a two-spirit person that was to protect them against harm in battle etc. I could really go on here but will refrain. Because the term "two-Spirit" Comes with cultural and religious responsibility it's important to acknowledge and respect that. For example some coming of age ceremonies for a two-spirit person require to give flesh offerings at ceremony.... So, you could imagine how frustrating it would be to study and literally have to give a flesh offering to use the word and then someone comes along just using it because they think it "sounds nice" so please be respectful as many people (such as myself) Take our cultural responsibility very seriously.

With all that being said, as regards to language and the topic, in the Cherokee way we have 13 different words just within our language (no i'm not going to post a 3 page essay here on them)... When the settlers came over they demanded to know why men were living with men, women with women, and of course why some people's gender identity did not always match their parts. So for Cherokee people we struggled to come up with words to describe something that was just another relationship to us everytime someone knew visited.... So therefore 13 different words were recorded that somehow separated us as a different kind of person/relationship when before we were just part of the people....

Comparing language of course Cherokee language has no gender, it is inclusive, not exclusive. It is a descriptive language so things and people do not get left out.... If I were to give an opinion based on the fact that what I have seen and read about the culture the language of Na'vi, the people would be inclusive and of course... As native people, they don't waste energy, they don't waste food, so why then... would they waste love? or waste the value of a productive and caring individual? Two-Spirit people have a place among our native people... It would be hard for me to think that we wouldn't have a place in the amazing world of Avatar... To which many native values have been studied and woven into the concepts.... Including but not limited to... The language.

Hope this helps.
That was a beautiful and inspiring post. Very welcome addition to what was an old and dead discussion, for its insight value alone.

Welcome to Learn Na'vi!

I would like to say that the outlook there is one that indeed seems in line with the Na'vi. It is published and known that the Na'vi do not really care the gender/sex of their partners. Male-male and female-female couples are "not uncommon", I read in the ASG/Pandorapedia.

It's just that we have received a somewhat biased picture of this part of Na'vi life in the Avatar film due to Jake and Neytiri happening to be opposite sexes and seem to be heterosexual (this is widely assumed but the sexual orientations of these characters I believe was never explicitly stated, but their lifelong bond they made to each other may or may not be some evidence of their heterosexuality) and they fall in love with each other.

The Na'vi language rarely employs gender and it seems only optionally existent to disambiguate ambiguous statements where pointing out a gender would maybe make it more clear which person the speaker is talking about, for example. The gender-neutral (or gender-inclusive) version of the 3rd person pronoun is by far the most common form used by this community and even in the film despite female and male variants existing.

Thanks for your input and again, welcome. It's really awesome to have someone like you here! :)

via LG-K550 (Tapatalk)


Mouse

aww well thank you, looks like i'm going to need a bunch of flashcards for sure. To be honest this language looks like a lot of fun, Cherokee we have things change based on it being solid, liquid, living, flexible lol the list goes on.... for example a cup that has water in it is a liquid, if you drink all the water it changes back to a solid.... Na'vi makes me smile that the rules are not crazy complex (at least in that way) Look forward toseeing everyone around. Hope to make it to an event here in the next year or so, looks like I missed the 2016.