Na'vi couples...hetro, homo etc/.

Started by 'Ì'awn Menari, August 22, 2010, 08:18:32 AM

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ToktorGrace

@Ku'rända: Thanks muchly :) It's actually a doctored up picture of when I did my cosplay as an Avatar scientist ^^

@ Eyamsiyu: A very good question - I would agree with Ku'rända on this, mostly out of my own hopes (I can't help it haha but I think that it would be cool) but different species from different groups have proven to exhibit homosexual tendencies, so if conditions for procreation are at all similar to how mammals or birds do it here then I'd imagine that it would be quite possible. But this is all just speculation >.>
Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature.  - St. Augustine

 



I speak Na'vi with a French accent...

Ku'rända

Quote from: Truro (Tìvawm'ia) on November 05, 2010, 09:35:33 PM
@Ku'rända: Thanks muchly :) It's actually a doctored up picture of when I did my cosplay as an Avatar scientist ^^

@ Eyamsiyu: A very good question - I would agree with Ku'rända on this, mostly out of my own hopes (I can't help it haha but I think that it would be cool) but different species from different groups have proven to exhibit homosexual tendencies, so if conditions for procreation are at all similar to how mammals or birds do it here then I'd imagine that it would be quite possible. But this is all just speculation >.>

Still, pretty :D

Back to the topic:  Since Na'vi are free-thinking, I do think the idea of same-sex couples would be higher based on that, because of the chance there may be Na'vi who could be bi, and there for would be able to make a decision on whether to be with a male or female (as opposed to being a conformance thing, where only the opposite gender would be chosen.)

Give us a chance, MORON!

Kì'eyawn

What i'm curious about is, it's my understanding that in some indigenous cultures homosexuals are treated as being transgender—that is, they are expected to adopt the clothing, mannerisms, and lifestyle of the opposite sex.  Since the Na'vi seem to allow men and women to take on more or less the same roles (e.g., men and women both are hunters), it makes me wonder, above and beyond notions of sexual orientation, whether their concept of gender might be more "fluid," if that makes sense.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

Quote from: Kì'eyawn on November 07, 2010, 09:59:52 AM
What i'm curious about is, it's my understanding that in some indigenous cultures homosexuals are treated as being transgender—that is, they are expected to adopt the clothing, mannerisms, and lifestyle of the opposite sex.  Since the Na'vi seem to allow men and women to take on more or less the same roles (e.g., men and women both are hunters), it makes me wonder, above and beyond notions of sexual orientation, whether their concept of gender might be more "fluid," if that makes sense.

That's a very interesting idea! I guess it'd be possible, but I don't think we have enough elements to base a true judgement on that yet. But if we continue on your theory, then it would imply that the Na'vi would also have a more "fluid" concept of sexual orientation, right? Or am I understanding it wrong? It would seem to me the logical continuation of what you said, anyways. (:

ToktorGrace

Quote from: Kì'eyawn on November 07, 2010, 09:59:52 AM
Since the Na'vi seem to allow men and women to take on more or less the same roles (e.g., men and women both are hunters), it makes me wonder, above and beyond notions of sexual orientation, whether their concept of gender might be more "fluid," if that makes sense.

Yeah, this is really interesting... reminds me of the "two spirit" suggestion someone said a little while back. *nods*
Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature.  - St. Augustine

 



I speak Na'vi with a French accent...

Ftiafpi

#85
Hey, we had a post reported to the admins and it appears to have been deleted, and I think people are going to leave it be, so I personally am happy to leave it at that.

That said, though, I want everyone posting here to realize that this is an EXTREMELY delicate issue. Please, please consider each post you make before posting and please, if it doesn't need to be said or if it will hurt other peoples feelings then I urge you to reword or reconsider your post.

Anyway, you guys are doing fine. There's some really interesting discussion going on in here and this is definitely a fascinating topic. Carry on.

Ekirä

Quote from: Ftiafpi on November 07, 2010, 10:27:50 PM
Hey, we had a post reported to the admins and it appears to have been deleted and I think people are going to leave it be so I personally am happy to leave it at that.
Not sure if it matters at all, but the deleted post is still shown in Eyamsiyu's post as a quote........

But I agree, this is a delicate subject and I'm surprised there hasn't been more anger here.

Ku'rända

Quote from: Ekirä on November 07, 2010, 10:45:11 PM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on November 07, 2010, 10:27:50 PM
Hey, we had a post reported to the admins and it appears to have been deleted and I think people are going to leave it be so I personally am happy to leave it at that.
Not sure if it matters at all, but the deleted post is still shown in Eyamsiyu's post as a quote........

But I agree, this is a delicate subject and I'm surprised there hasn't been more anger here.

It's the 21st (.....22nd) century! 

Anyways,  I think one can also compare it to ancient roman (and greek) times where many of the male soldiers would take on partners (both male and female; and even young men; 17ish)  A lot of ancient gods who had some bearing towards it (ie: Priapus, Anubis, Apollo, and Xochipilli [Who'm was a specifically for gay males] Just to name a few)  And there's also an Egyptian story about how Horus tried to do Set (for lack of better wording!) after admiring Set's backside.  (Kind of funny what things you can find!)

Again, playing the religion card, I do think the onset of Monotheism (Namely Judaism) was what struk down concept of same-sex dealings being acceptable.

Give us a chance, MORON!

Eyamsiyu

Quote from: Ekirä on November 07, 2010, 10:45:11 PM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on November 07, 2010, 10:27:50 PM
Hey, we had a post reported to the admins and it appears to have been deleted and I think people are going to leave it be so I personally am happy to leave it at that.
Not sure if it matters at all, but the deleted post is still shown in Eyamsiyu's post as a quote........

Not anymore.  Edited. ;)

And it is a delicate subject, but I think we here are discussing this intelligently enough, and with proper etiquette.  So I'm not too worried.  However, I know there will be people that will speak strongly, and that deleted post, I feel, won't be the last of its kind.  But the way we reacted to such a post was not with anger, but with intelligent questioning, and, for a lack of better words, convincing argument.

Once again why LN.org has become one of my favorite places to be. ;)


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Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

QuoteAnyways,  I think one can also compare it to ancient roman (and greek) times where many of the male soldiers would take on partners (both male and female; and even young men; 17ish)  A lot of ancient gods who had some bearing towards it (ie: Priapus, Anubis, Apollo, and Xochipilli [Who'm was a specifically for gay males] Just to name a few)

Wou  :o! So many gods with homosexual tendencies! The only one i've heard about before was Zeus!

Then again...

I've heard Zeus was quite the player, both male- and female-wise. Poor Hera, married to such an unfaithful man  :(.

QuoteAnd there's also an Egyptian story about how Horus tried to do Set (for lack of better wording!) after admiring Set's backside.  (Kind of funny what things you can find!)

What  :o! Horus and Set... Set and Horus... Not the ideal couple if you ask me! Set killed his brother, Osiris, Horus'es freakin' father!

QuoteAgain, playing the religion card, I do think the onset of Monotheism (Namely Judaism) was what struk down concept of same-sex dealings being acceptable.

That's what i thought, too! All these stories about tribal communities believing in the the existance of transgender people led me to the conclusion that it must have been the Abrahamic religions who started this ``anti-gay´´ crusade (I already know that the abrahamic religions at least where against homosexuality.)


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ToktorGrace

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on November 08, 2010, 01:50:47 PM

QuoteAgain, playing the religion card, I do think the onset of Monotheism (Namely Judaism) was what struk down concept of same-sex dealings being acceptable.

That's what i thought, too! All these stories about tribal communities believing in the the existance of transgender people led me to the conclusion that it must have been the Abrahamic religions who started this ``anti-gay´´ crusade (I already know that the abrahamic religions at least where against homosexuality.)


Lol, this happens to be a topic I have spent a large amount of time examining and debating with others... I will try not to go on a tangent, but to say that the Abrahamic traditions all do stem from the old holy books, where numerous inane laws and "abominations" along with according punishments are listed. It saddens me the number of things that people decide to impose on others based on these scriptures despite the message of love and honesty preached by Jesus and Mohammed, the founders of two of the largest religions in the world.  Especially given that while emphasis is given on hating gays, there is a law right next to it that these same people consider "outdated".

Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature.  - St. Augustine

 



I speak Na'vi with a French accent...

Ku'rända

Quote from: Truro (Tìvawm'ia) on November 08, 2010, 02:35:16 PM
Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on November 08, 2010, 01:50:47 PM

QuoteAgain, playing the religion card, I do think the onset of Monotheism (Namely Judaism) was what struk down concept of same-sex dealings being acceptable.

That's what i thought, too! All these stories about tribal communities believing in the the existance of transgender people led me to the conclusion that it must have been the Abrahamic religions who started this ``anti-gay´´ crusade (I already know that the abrahamic religions at least where against homosexuality.)


Lol, this happens to be a topic I have spent a large amount of time examining and debating with others... I will try not to go on a tangent, but to say that the Abrahamic traditions all do stem from the old holy books, where numerous inane laws and "abominations" along with according punishments are listed. It saddens me the number of things that people decide to impose on others based on these scriptures despite the message of love and honesty preached by Jesus and Mohammed, the founders of two of the largest religions in the world.  Especially given that while emphasis is given on hating gays, there is a law right next to it that these same people consider "outdated".


Interestingly enough, there are two factors that make me laugh about modern day Christians who are all "omg gay=bad, you go to hell"  First: The word abomination didn't have the same meaning back in those days, as it does now.  It meant unclean (which is very different.)  Second:  If I recall, Jesus stated that the Mosaic law (which included, gays, shellfish, slaves, clothes, ect) was invalid to modern day christians, and never even spoke out in support for those things.

Give us a chance, MORON!

Kì'eyawn

Ma Ku'rända, adding (tangentially) to your point about mythology:

I'll be vague, b/c i've forgotten the details, but there's a story in Hinduism that a powerful demon once pleased Brahma enough that the latter was willing to grant him a boon.

"Make me immortal," the demon asks (because that's what demons always ask for).
"Sorry, can't do that," Brahma says.  "It's against the rules."  The wily demon thinks for a bit.
"Then, grant that i can be slain only by the son of Shiva and Vishnu."  This is terribly clever of him, as Shiva and Vishnu are both male gods, making this quite impossible.  De facto immortality.
"Okaaay, you got it.  But be careful what you wish—"
"Yeahwhateverthanksbye."

So this apparently un-killable demon goes around wreaking havoc for a bit, but the gods take rather strong exception to this bad behavior, so Vishnu turns to Shiva and says, "Alright, enough.  We need to fix this."

"But ha!  You can't!" says the demon, between sessions of pillage and plunder.  Vishnu and Shiva laugh heartily—because the unenlightened fool thinks that such worldly things as sex actually matter—and then Vishnu promptly turns into a woman named Mohini.  Between other mischief-making she gets up to amongst the demons, Mohini takes time to get with Shiva, and they beget a son.  Who grows up and promptly snicks the head off a very surprised demon.

The End.

(Apologies for my rather irreverent style of storytelling; the Hindu gods just strike me as having a very well-developed, slightly dark sense of humor).
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Kì'eyawn

Kaltxì nìmun,

Apologies for dominating the conversation.  Check out this interesting tidbit on Celtic gender and sexual norms.  Interesting stuff.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

ToktorGrace

These legends and links are making me very happy - I have done a LOT of study of gender and alternative sexuality from the POV of monotheistic religions, but not from the plethora of other cultural ways of dealing with it! Very interesting, and informative, that set gender roles in societies are definitely NOT all the same.

Keep on sharing! :)

(( And all the more reason that the Na'vi would accept homosexuality in their society - after all they're sort of an antithesis to Western ideology ))
Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature.  - St. Augustine

 



I speak Na'vi with a French accent...

Ku'rända

I start to wonder now, how the Na'vi would come to see sex when it comes to.. well..  Just wanting to get some.  Seems to me, the western cultures it's not so much "I love you, lets have sex"  but more "I'm horny, lets have sex".  I wonder how the Na'vi would see this concept, seems to me they see sex as a spiritual thing (as well as to pass on genes)  I'm sure 2 (fe)males would get a lot of slag for that.

Give us a chance, MORON!

Kì'eyawn

Quote from: Ku'rända on November 09, 2010, 02:25:48 PM
I start to wonder now, how the Na'vi would come to see sex when it comes to.. well..  Just wanting to get some.  Seems to me, the western cultures it's not so much "I love you, lets have sex"  but more "I'm horny, lets have sex".  I wonder how the Na'vi would see this concept, seems to me they see sex as a spiritual thing (as well as to pass on genes)  I'm sure 2 (fe)males would get a lot of slag for that.

I dunno.  The reason the argument here on 'Rrta goes that homosexual relations go "against nature" is that procreation is impossible.  Which, from a biological perspective, yes, it's accurate to say that homosexual acts tend not to produce offspring (except in certain species of lizards; but anyway...).  So, if the main "focus" of a culture is on sex as reproduction, it makes sense that homosexuality may be viewed unfavorably.

But if to the Na'vi the focus on sex is the spiritual aspect—i.e., tsaheylu—then i don't expect they would view homosexual sex as qualitatively different from heterosexual sex:  All Na'vi have the same bits and pieces sticking out the backs of their heads, kefyak?

eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Dreamlight

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on November 08, 2010, 01:50:47 PM
I've heard Zeus was quite the player, both male- and female-wise. Poor Hera, married to such an unfaithful man  :(.

Also Loki *cough*Svadilfaeri*cough* but that's a whole 'nother issue.  :P
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Amaya

Quote from: Dreamlight on November 09, 2010, 09:06:42 PM
Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on November 08, 2010, 01:50:47 PM
I've heard Zeus was quite the player, both male- and female-wise. Poor Hera, married to such an unfaithful man  :(.

Also Loki *cough*Svadilfaeri*cough* but that's a whole 'nother issue.  :P

*blinks innocently* indeed it is, indeed in is *cough*cross-genderbestiality*cough*


Also I agree about the "spiritual" nature of sex among the Na'vi.  If anything, procreation is an occasional side effect, since it seems Eywa keeps some reigns on population to prevent overcrowding. 

Dreamlight

Sex is, at its best, a deeply spiritual thing anyway, or can be.
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"Peace on Earth" was all it said.