Na`vi customs

Started by squig95, December 31, 2009, 10:11:23 PM

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Sngä'i Tìrey-yä

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 02, 2010, 09:46:32 PM
Once I get the guide book and have some time I plan to write a brief anthropological paper about them.

That was the one thing that bugged me about the movie. Why was Grace, a botanist, given supposedly the head position of interaction with the tribe. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have an anthropologist take the lead, the have the training and experience with integrating and learning completely foreign cultures. They would have learned from the Na'Vi with out giving the idea that their "cup is full."

I sort of wondered that at first as well, but then I have to wonder how many scientists with friends/family/a career would be willing to leave everything behind for at least eighteen years to study another planet's cultures.
Avatar is a movie about a guy with blue balls running through the forest chasing tail.

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

There are plenty of anthropologist I know who would drop everything in a second for such an experience. Many anthropologist go into the field for long periods of time and plenty eventually just live there permanently. It's something you must consider when you get into the field.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Txur’Itan

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 02, 2010, 09:46:32 PM
Once I get the guide book and have some time I plan to write a brief anthropological paper about them.

That was the one thing that bugged me about the movie. Why was Grace, a botanist, given supposedly the head position of interaction with the tribe. Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have an anthropologist take the lead, the have the training and experience with integrating and learning completely foreign cultures. They would have learned from the Na'Vi with out giving the idea that their "cup is full."

She was working for a corporation, she was not working for an expeditionary organisation and was not working for a community of benevolent curators.

It was established that she was a scientist.  No discipline was identified, even though it was suggested that she was a botanist, it was not ever made clear what here back ground was.

Corporations frequently promote people to management roles based on a handful of arbitrary criteria, I am not surprised by this move in the least.   Typical corporate thought process in a nutshell: "She is a scientists we can trust as a manager, so lets put her in charge of this science thing, she can request/hire staff around the more specific needs of the department."

Selfridge was acting on behalf of the corporate business interests, so he was technically assigned as her boss, even though she debated with him, she had to bend to his decisions in placing Jake in her department or be deemed insubordinate.
私は太った男だ。


Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Well I assume botanist since she apparently work the book on it, heh.

What an idiotic thought process for the company then! Shouldn't it be, "well we're probably going to have to work with them at one point, and we'd rather not shoot them, so send in someone who is actually trained to befriend and learn." Granted a good anthropologist would be on the native side every time...maybe they thought it would be easier to manipulate a scientists who "likes plant more than people" with pretty grant money than someone trained to pretty much become a native. That makes sense...

I wonder, if before the corporation took control, what the initial exploration of Pandora was like. Surely when they first landed they didn't know that the resource was there and at that point it was just for basic human need of exploration. I bet at that point they would have scientists doing what they were supposed to do instead of stretching them out like poor Grace.

Anywho, I need sleep, I can tell I'm making less and less sense.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Txur’Itan

#44
Some Cultural highlights

Olo'eyktan = Cheif (Clan leader)

Tsahìk  = Shamman (Voice of Eywa)

Taronyu  = Hunter (All Omatikaya from the movie must become this, to be a full member of the tribe, this has prayers to Eywa)

Ikran Mokto = Banshee rider, many Na'vi clans learn this to become a member of the tribe, the ritual requires mutual selection

Toruk Mokto = Rider of Great Leonopteryx "Last Shadow", the ritual for becoming Toruk Mokto requires being chosen by Toruk, then taming the Toruk after being chosen, Toruk Mokto is a title bestowed by the Na'vi people to one who has earned it

muntxa = there are rituals for this act that are performed as Muntxa tok Utral Aymokriyä eo Eywa to represent a union of a mated pair.

Eywa = the Na'vi diety, the "all mother" or nìwotx sa'nok

mawey aysmukan = informally a prayer of "peace brothers" for the suffering of animals

Tsahaylu = the bond which uses the neural head-tail that connects the Na'vi to the creatures of Pandora, and to Utral Aymokriyä and thus Eywa.  Prayers to Eywa are done using Tsahaylu.
私は太った男だ。


Txepa-utral Atxkxe

Quote from: Txur'Itan on January 03, 2010, 09:17:31 AM
Some Cultural highlights

Olo'eyktan = Cheif (Clan leader)

Tsahìk  = Shamman (Voice of Eywa)

Taronyu  = Hunter (All Omatikaya from the movie must become this, to be a full member of the tribe, this has prayers to Eywa)

Ikran Mokto = Banshee rider, many Na'vi clans learn this to become a member of the tribe, the ritual requires mutual selection



Toruk Mokto = Rider of Great Leonopteryx "Last Shadow", the ritual for becoming Toruk Mokto requires being chosen by Toruk, then taming the Toruk after being chosen, Toruk Mokto is a title bestowed by the Na'vi people to one who has earned it

muntxa = there are rituals for this act that are performed as Muntxa tok Utral Aymokriyä eo Eywa to represent a union of a mated pair.

Eywa = the Na'vi diety, the "all mother" or nìwotx sa'nok

mawey aysmukan = informally a prayer of "peace brothers" for the suffering of animals

Tsahaylu = the bond which uses the neural head-tail that connects the Na'vi to the creatures of Pandora, and to Utral Aymokriyä and thus Eywa.  Prayers to Eywa are done using Tsahaylu.
Did you derive this just from the film or did you have an outside source?
In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane.--Oscar Wilde

Uniltìranyu

Quote from: Txur'Itan on January 03, 2010, 09:17:31 AM
Some Cultural highlights
mawey aysmukan = informally a prayer of "peace brothers" for the suffering of animals
Do you have the full text of this? That would be quite interesting to read/learn
Eywa ayngahu, frapo nìNa'vi paylltxeie...
May Eywa be with you, all Na'vi speakers.

Txur’Itan

私は太った男だ。


Txepa-utral Atxkxe

In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane.--Oscar Wilde

Txur’Itan

#49
Some Cultural highlights primarily from the film.

My observations are of the movie Avatar's Na'vi characters specifically, and coupled that with the dialogue used to describe the characters, and included anecdotes from their choices in action or speaking.
I had watched Avatar eight times in English.
I had watched the movie twice after learning some Na'vi.
The times of appearance in the film, and direct quotes are currently incomplete, but the cultural references and how they appear in the film are listed in the spoiler tags from memory.
** Using the Na'vi on this site and from other sources which have dissections of corpus from Publishes sources, interviews with Dr Frommer and so on...

----

Olo'eyktan = Chief (Clan leader)

Tsahìk  = Shaman (Assertion:'Voice of Eywa'/Neytiri quote "Interprets the Will of Eywa")

(T)aronyu  = Hunter (All Omatikaya from the movie must become this, to be a full member of the tribe, this has prayers to Eywa)

Ikran (makto-yu) = Banshee rider, many Na'vi clans learn this to become a member of the tribe, the ritual requires mutual selection

Toruk Makto = Rider of "Last Shadow"(Great Leonopteryx), the ritual for becoming Toruk Makto requires being chosen by Toruk, then taming the Toruk after being chosen, Toruk Makto is a title bestowed by the Na'vi people to one who has earned it or needs it

muntxa = there are rituals for this act that are performed as Muntxa tok Utral Aymokriyä eo Eywa to represent a union of a mated pair.

Eywa = the Na'vi deity, the "all mother" or (nìwotx?) sa'nok

mawey aysmukan = informally a prayer of "peace brothers" for the suffering of animals

Tsahaylu = the bond which uses the neural head-tail that connects the Na'vi to the creatures of Pandora, and to Utral Aymokriyä and thus Eywa.  Prayers to Eywa are done using Tsahaylu.
私は太った男だ。


Txepa-utral Atxkxe

In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane.--Oscar Wilde

Sngä'i Tìrey-yä

Irayo x1000000000000

Very helpful, wonderful!
Avatar is a movie about a guy with blue balls running through the forest chasing tail.

Uniltìranyu

Eywa ayngahu, frapo nìNa'vi paylltxeie...
May Eywa be with you, all Na'vi speakers.

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Quote from: Txur'Itan on January 06, 2010, 06:39:44 PM
Some Cultural highlights primarily from the film.

My observations are of the movie Avatar's Na'vi characters specifically, and coupled that with the dialogue used to describe the characters, and included anecdotes from their choices in action or speaking.
I had watched Avatar eight times in English.
I had watched the movie twice after learning some Na'vi.
The times of appearance in the film, and direct quotes are currently incomplete, but the cultural references and how they appear in the film are listed in the spoiler tags from memory.
** Using the Na'vi on this site and from other sources which have dissections of corpus from Publishes sources, interviews with Dr Frommer and so on...

----

Olo'eyktan = Chief (Clan leader)

Tsahìk  = Shaman (Assertion:'Voice of Eywa'/Neytiri quote "Interprets the Will of Eywa")

(T)aronyu  = Hunter (All Omatikaya from the movie must become this, to be a full member of the tribe, this has prayers to Eywa)

Ikran (makto-yu) = Banshee rider, many Na'vi clans learn this to become a member of the tribe, the ritual requires mutual selection

Toruk Makto = Rider of "Last Shadow"(Great Leonopteryx), the ritual for becoming Toruk Makto requires being chosen by Toruk, then taming the Toruk after being chosen, Toruk Makto is a title bestowed by the Na'vi people to one who has earned it or needs it

muntxa = there are rituals for this act that are performed as Muntxa tok Utral Aymokriyä eo Eywa to represent a union of a mated pair.

Eywa = the Na'vi deity, the "all mother" or (nìwotx?) sa'nok

mawey aysmukan = informally a prayer of "peace brothers" for the suffering of animals

Tsahaylu = the bond which uses the neural head-tail that connects the Na'vi to the creatures of Pandora, and to Utral Aymokriyä and thus Eywa.  Prayers to Eywa are done using Tsahaylu.


I'd like to just point a few more things about Toruk Makto. Neytiri says that there have only been five of them since the Song Time, which proves that it is a rare event.

If one considers the bond between mount and rider to be one of equality than there is a very big technical reason why other Na'vi simply do not try to become Toruk Makto. There must be a mutual choosing between Ikran and Rider, which is different than the bond with the Pa'li, horse. This would suggests that the Ikran and Toruk probably have a more complex brain than the Pa'li, which could mean that if it was a forced connection it could be rejected. It's bad enough to have a pissed off Ikran denying you, but messing with Toruk with out him choosing you probably means death.

Yes Jake jumps on Toruk and does a sneak attack, but I think that if he wasn't the right choice it wouldn't have ended  a lot differently. Eywa showed signs for him to be spared for a reason. If one wants a more biological explanation, it would make sense that in order for the bond to work between more complex minds like the Ikran and Na'vi there has to be a similar electrical pattern in their brains that they can sense due to tsahaylu. If someone has a similar electrical pattern, or whatever, to Toruk they may attract the atokarina hence the signs from Eywa.

This is all just speculation of course :3
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Txur’Itan

#54
Quote from: Txur'Itan on January 06, 2010, 06:39:44 PM
-- SNIP

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 07, 2010, 12:42:47 AM
I'd like to just point a few more things about Toruk Makto. Neytiri says that there have only been five of them since the Song Time, which proves that it is a rare event.

Definitely...

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 07, 2010, 12:42:47 AM
If one considers the bond between mount and rider to be one of equality than there is a very big technical reason why other Na'vi simply do not try to become Toruk Makto. There must be a mutual choosing between Ikran and Rider, which is different than the bond with the Pa'li, horse. This would suggests that the Ikran and Toruk probably have a more complex brain than the Pa'li, which could mean that if it was a forced connection it could be rejected. It's bad enough to have a pissed off Ikran denying you, but messing with Toruk with out him choosing you probably means death.

Interesting theory, it may explain the structure of the ritual.  Currently, there is no exposition on why this occurs, just that it occurs.  What you state may prove to be similar to what Cameron decides when he releases the sequels through retroactive continuity.

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 07, 2010, 12:42:47 AM
Yes Jake jumps on Toruk and does a sneak attack, but I think that if he wasn't the right choice it wouldn't have ended  a lot differently. Eywa showed signs for him to be spared for a reason. If one wants a more biological explanation, it would make sense that in order for the bond to work between more complex minds like the Ikran and Na'vi there has to be a similar electrical pattern in their brains that they can sense due to tsahaylu. If someone has a similar electrical pattern, or whatever, to Toruk they may attract the atokarina' hence the signs from Eywa.

The choosing process seems far less polite as it was portrayed in the movie between rider and mount when it came to Ikran, or Toruk.  The atokirina' may be attracted to similar chemistry, but there aren't any indications of the Na'vi brains being telepathic, so far.  Electrochemical signals from brains are not likely to wander freely into the ether on their own, but that could be some new thing Cameron makes up for the fiction in the film.  It could be that he is emmitting pheromones and he is attractive to every form of wild life on the planet, but that would contradict what Neytiri said about being attacked by the viperwolves being caused by Jakes lack of stealth.  Stay tuned I guess...

It was clearly stated that the choosing is an attempt to kill, not to hang out.  ;D Neytiri quote: "He will try to kill you."  If anything, Jake may have not known how the Toruk would behave, and its yeowl indicates it was not happy to have him there when he first landed on its back.  The scene would have been interesting, if it had showed him struggling with the creature, or having it react to him in some way, but instead, we are shown nothing between his plan Jake quote:("Why would he look up?") and him arriving with the Toruk as is his mount.

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 07, 2010, 12:42:47 AM
This is all just speculation of course :3

Understandably, we would have to go to Cameron's school on Na'vi sociology and Pandora ecology, botany, biology to get a better handle on the separations between the biological and ritual components.  For instance, anything conclusions having to do with the bond are dubious and speculation at best, it is the most alien component of the life on Pandora, and aside from what is observable in the film, still completely unknown to us all.
私は太った男だ。


Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Well I didn't mean that the choosing was a polite reaction. If there is a way for them to recognize a similar brain pattern (what ever way Cameron comes up with) perhaps it frightens the Ikran, or activates it's fight or flight instinct.

And yes, Jake completely surprised the Toruk, but if my theory is correct or at least on the right path, if he wasn't the right one it would have had a negative effect. When he bonded with the Ikran the animal was instantly soothed. Perhaps if they bond with one they're not supposed to it'll only upset them more.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Txur’Itan

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 07, 2010, 01:17:39 AM
Well I didn't mean that the choosing was a polite reaction. If there is a way for them to recognize a similar brain pattern (what ever way Cameron comes up with) perhaps it frightens the Ikran, or activates it's fight or flight instinct.

And yes, Jake completely surprised the Toruk, but if my theory is correct or at least on the right path, if he wasn't the right one it would have had a negative effect. When he bonded with the Ikran the animal was instantly soothed. Perhaps if they bond with one they're not supposed to it'll only upset them more.

That could be it. 
私は太った男だ。


Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Yes, once again it's just speculation. But it's always difficult for me to simply except the answer "it's just a ritual" rituals have to come from somewhere, so there is usually a reason behind it. Besides, I'm sure there has been the occasional mischievous Na'vi teen that went against traditions from time to time and there would probably be a lot more people sharing Ikran or trying to get their's early if there wasn't some serious consequence. 
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Txur’Itan

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 07, 2010, 01:25:16 AM
Yes, once again it's just speculation. But it's always difficult for me to simply except the answer "it's just a ritual" rituals have to come from somewhere, so there is usually a reason behind it. Besides, I'm sure there has been the occasional mischievous Na'vi teen that went against traditions from time to time and there would probably be a lot more people sharing Ikran or trying to get their's early if there wasn't some serious consequence. 

I am not surprised that you would not want to accept this.  The word "ritual" as I am using it, is a description though, and while not an answer, it could be if some one asked a question:

Q:"What are they doing?"
A:"It looks like the are performing a ritual." 

Q:"Is that ritual part of their culture?"
A:"I do not know, but that ritual is not part of my culture."

Which gets back to the original post, which was about cultural references to the Na'vi, and so far that is what I have observed.
私は太った男だ。


Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Yes I know. It's very important to list the rituals found in a society, but I find it fun to try and find the meaning behind it and perhaps the reasoning. It's why I'm going into anthropology :D. To just list the rituals is good for a brief over view of the culture, but to gain a deeper meaning you have to poke at it a bit.

To me the Na'vi are very practical people. They are of course very spiritual, but that is because they have a direct connection to their god. They don't seem to be the type of people who blindly follow something "because Eywa said so." Their rituals seem to have a practicality base, they respect Eywa and protect her, but they make no offerings or sacrifices to her. From what we've seen it appears that they are not a superstitious people. A site is sacred because they can literally connect to it, not because of an ancient story. Before a hunt they may pray to Eywa, but they understand that there is nothing they could give to her to sway her favor.

I think their literal connection to their God would make most of their rituals have a solid practical founding, or at least some remnants of it.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng