Na`vi customs

[Coyote]

I also have to wonder what role women play in the Na'vi customs. Its obvious that men are seen as warriors and are given the special ceremony (only citied as being for those 'becoming a man'), but when Jake was choosing his ikran, there was a female Na'vi with them. Then there's also Neytiri's abilities and prowess as a hunter that shows women aren't totally expected to just sit in the tree and take care of the young. Any insight?

Plus, Jake was offered to pursue a woman who was "the best hunter". I think the reason he was told he'd have to go through a ceremony to "become a man" is because he himself was male. If he was a she, "she" would go through a ceremony to "become a woman". It's the same in Hebrew, where we would tell a boy he will got a bar-mitzvah ceremony, and we'd tell a girl she'll go to a bat-mitzvah ceremony.

[Coyote]

I'm part cherokee so I spent the entire movie going "dear god, its Custer's last stand!"

Heh-- and during the cavalry charge scene when thousands of Na'vi warriors charge that small band of RDA Security goons I was thinking "ooh, good. A Rorke's Drift homage. Bring it."

Unfortunately... mm, no. Dammit.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Can you please try to not double post. It clutters up the board a bit. You  can quote more than one person at a time. Irayo.

[Txepa-utral Atxkxe]

I also have to wonder what role women play in the Na'vi customs. Its obvious that men are seen as warriors and are given the special ceremony (only citied as being for those 'becoming a man'), but when Jake was choosing his ikran, there was a female Na'vi with them. Then there's also Neytiri's abilities and prowess as a hunter that shows women aren't totally expected to just sit in the tree and take care of the young. Any insight?

Plus, Jake was offered to pursue a woman who was "the best hunter". I think the reason he was told he'd have to go through a ceremony to "become a man" is because he himself wa smale. If he was a she, "she" would go through a ceremony to "become a woman". It's the same in Hebrew, where we would tell a boy he will got a bar-mitzvah ceremony, and we'd tell a girl she'll go to a bat-mitzvah ceremony.

Yeah, but during Jake's voice-over when Neytiri was painting his face, he said, "The Na'vi say: every person is born twice." 'Person', not 'male'. Unless what you're trying to say that perhaps the coming-of-age ceremony has only a slight difference for males and females, seeing as females also have ikran.

[Txur’Itan]

I also have to wonder what role women play in the Na'vi customs. Its obvious that men are seen as warriors and are given the special ceremony (only citied as being for those 'becoming a man'), but when Jake was choosing his ikran, there was a female Na'vi with them. Then there's also Neytiri's abilities and prowess as a hunter that shows women aren't totally expected to just sit in the tree and take care of the young. Any insight?

Plus, Jake was offered to pursue a woman who was "the best hunter". I think the reason he was told he'd have to go through a ceremony to "become a man" is because he himself wa smale. If he was a she, "she" would go through a ceremony to "become a woman". It's the same in Hebrew, where we would tell a boy he will got a bar-mitzvah ceremony, and we'd tell a girl she'll go to a bat-mitzvah ceremony.

Yeah, but during Jake's voice-over when Neytiri was painting his face, he said, "The Na'vi say: every person is born twice." 'Person', not 'male'. Unless what you're trying to say that perhaps the coming-of-age ceremony has only a slight difference for males and females, seeing as females also have ikran.

That ceremony is very ritualised, I think Neytiri knowing Jake's limited understanding of Na'vi customs probably held his hand through the whole process near the end of it all.  I think she played a larger role than would likely be typical or necessary. 

I agree that there may be similarities between male and female roles in a ceremony like this, but I also think there may be logical differences because genders still happen to be physically different even if they are not socially different except for leaders, AFAIK.

The collection of spirals that were painted on him, it is a very "Native American" understanding of the connections between all things.

[Txepa-utral Atxkxe]

The collection of spirals that were painted on him, it is a very "Native American" understanding of the connections between all things.

I actually the white spirals were an stylized "exaggeration" (for lack of a better) of the bioluminescent freckles that the Na'vi had as well as perhaps showing spiritual connectedness..This pops up in at least Aztec art and body painting so...

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

So far the movie hasn't shown any division of labor between male and females other than who is the clan leader and who is the spiritual leader, so even with the size difference it's hard to say if they would have any ritualistic differences. Remember that when he said "become a man" he was talking to macho military guy and trying to convince him to let him go. He was probably just trying to play on the manly side of it and I think he makes a point of of putting emphasis on the word "person" in his video log.

I just got back from watching the movie again and I would like to go back to an earlier point. When talking about the bond and their connection with Ikran I talked about how the soon to be rider and Ikran probably had similar brain patterns, or something along those lines, that they could both sense. This new sensation would probably spook the Ikran, hence why he fights his chosen. Once the bond is made they instantly calm, which suggests that if they were not compatible the bond may have a negative reaction and upset the Ikran even more.

We decided that there was little evidence that showed the Na'vi to be telepathic outside of the bond and that it was unlikely that they were emitting some kind of electrical field. But watching the movie again tonight I noticed a few things that stuck out to me that could be used as proof that they emit something that other creatures can sense.

One being when they are by the Tree of Voices the branches lean in and follow their body. This would suggest that there has to be a way for the branches to know they are there.

Another is the Ikran's ability to find their rider. When Jake wakes up after the burning of Hometree his Ikran immediately finds him and flies down. Also with Toruk, when Jake is running on top of the gun ship he knows exactly where to jump off and where Toruk would be. Both suggest that, while they probably don't have a direct telepathic connection, they can at least feel each other even when they aren't bonded.
 

[Txur’Itan]

So far the movie hasn't shown any division of labor between male and females other than who is the clan leader and who is the spiritual leader, so even with the size difference it's hard to say if they would have any ritualistic differences. Remember that when he said "become a man" he was talking to macho military guy and trying to convince him to let him go. He was probably just trying to play on the manly side of it and I think he makes a point of of putting emphasis on the word "person" in his video log.

That makes sence...

I just got back from watching the movie again and I would like to go back to an earlier point. When talking about the bond and their connection with Ikran I talked about how the soon to be rider and Ikran probably had similar brain patterns, or something along those lines, that they could both sense. This new sensation would probably spook the Ikran, hence why he fights his chosen. Once the bond is made they instantly calm, which suggests that if they were not compatible the bond may have a negative reaction and upset the Ikran even more.

It could suggest that there is a domination factor, because the rider is telling/thinking the mount to do things in each bond situation.

We decided that there was little evidence that showed the Na'vi to be telepathic outside of the bond and that it was unlikely that they were emitting some kind of electrical field. But watching the movie again tonight I noticed a few things that stuck out to me that could be used as proof that they emit something that other creatures can sense.

Very interesting observations. 

One being when they are by the Tree of Voices the branches lean in and follow their body. This would suggest that there has to be a way for the branches to know they are there.

When I see Avatar again I will have to watch for the tree of voices movements, I will have to say that I definately over looked that.  From what I was able to tell, all of the motion was consistently caused by the touching and grabbing of the connection vines by hand/arm. 

Another is the Ikran's ability to find their rider. When Jake wakes up after the burning of Hometree his Ikran immediately finds him and flies down. Also with Toruk, when Jake is running on top of the gun ship he knows exactly where to jump off and where Toruk would be. Both suggest that, while they probably don't have a direct telepathic connection, they can at least feel each other even when they aren't bonded.

Neytiri had to call her Ikran;  It is very possible that Jake is special in some way as yet unrevealed, the movie sets that up pretty heavily. 

Biologically, there is the possibility that the energy signature is visually detectable through the second set of eyes on the Ikran and Toruk, if it happens that they see that, then you may be on to something. 

I still am thinking the majority of the collaborative actions of Toruk and Ikran with Jake, after the first bond, could still be explained by preparation, and not anything outside of the bond. 

The AVTR tech leads us to believe that the mind is portable in its entirety.  The process it is possible for the Na'vi and for the Humans, but in a more advanced fashion for the Na'vi.  The transplantation of Consciousness, the psyche, the ID; along with the Engram  signatures, the synapse linkage wiring, the bio chemistry of the brain and further components that we may as yet be completely unaware of that make us who we are.  Some how there are significant advances in the understanding of the mind, that the body becomes potentially irrelevant.  How far does this extend?  Why do humans use temporary transplantation?  How did the Na'vi know that Eywa could move minds? 

In the real world, for EEG readings, they are just physical oscillations that can be measured the same way by tapping on a bowl of jello. That is why CT and CAT scans become necessary, the biochemical and electrical signals are all self contained.  Heat, causing infrared light humans generate externally, can not be used by humans to communicate, at least not yet. 

Since Neytiri had to call her Ikran and Jake did not, this creates ambiguity on the connections out side of the physical bond, there is much still to learn about the energy around the Tree of Souls and its similarity to Jakes interactions with the wild life on Pandora.  There is also Jake's Ikran after Jake becomes Toruk Makto, its whereabouts are currently unknown by the time he is riding Toruk through the end of the movie, why would it have chosen not to follow him around?  I think with Toruk gone, it could not have felt the need to keep its distance.  Maybe we will know more from the sequel.

During the assault on the shuttle, we see something interesting.  Toruk was over the shuttle when Jake jumped onto it, then under the ship when he jumped off.  The time he spends running across the top is very short even in slow motion. Toruk has to counter its current flight vector, then gain speed to overtake Jake underneath the shuttle.  Pretty elaborate tactical maneuvers for a seemingly wild animal, which was probably comfortable with frequently getting its own way, attacking what ever it wanted to attack, and flying where ever it pleased.  I think Jake would have had to "tell the creature in its mind" what to do, before he unlinked for the grenade drop.  Otherwise, Toruk might have just as well perched on the end of the shuttle waiting for him, glided along the side of it watching him, or possibly meandered off until he was able to flag it down.  Also, why wasn't Toruk under the "dragon" to catch Jake when he was hanging off of it or falling from it?  I think it was because Jake forgot to ask Toruk to swing back around while he was linked.  There is no obvious reason provided to think Toruk was motivated to help him the way it did without the physical link of the bond. 

For The Ikran finding Jake, that is difficult to figure out. 

There was time lapsing between waking up, observing the carnage at Kelutrel, and then seeing Jakes Ikran.  Jakes Ikran was probably looking for him.  Physiologically, Earthly flying predators like the Eagle or the Owl have exceptional vision.  For the Ikran, with two sets of eyes and with the elongated darkness periods (Polyphemus between the suns and Pandora), there are two paths of visual evolution, one for each set of eyes, more lumens of light into an eye set, more variations of light into the other eye set; each of which allowing for better vision in poor visibility, or over greater distances, or in better detail at higher altitudes looking for distant prey.  An Ikran could probably see deeper into the electromagnetic spectrum, so the dust was no issue for it finding Jake visually, but there has been no evidence of this vision process or detail yet, so probably a dead end, but more light collection through a larger iris has obvious possibilities.  This Website suggenst infrared, but there could be other EMS wavelengths than infrared the animal sees which offer higher fidelity, especially considering the tropically warm environment.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Well with Neytiri having to call Seze I bet she is trained only to come when called. I bet it would be pretty annoying if Neytiri, or any other Na'vi, if they just happened to be near the top of Hometree and your Ikran comes flying in to say hi.

As for Toruk not being there one Jake fell, that's a more difficult one. It is possible that he told Toruk before he broke the bond to be in a certain place and he was just following orders.

Anyway, I'm not saying that they have direct communication with each other, just that they can feel each other. A sort of sixth sense.

The idea of their second set of eyes seeing things differently is a very good idea. It would work with the idea of them sensing each other and why the Ikran that chooses you attacks you first. Perhaps the one that would match up with them is seen differently and that spooks them as they never came across them before.

Though I still believe they are emitting a weak force do to the reaction around the Tree of Voices. while it's true that Neytiri touches them first, all of the vines close to them move towards them as they walk down the path, even the ones they haven't touched.

[Txur’Itan]

I re-watched the movie.  I saw the motion of the Tree of Voices, it seems so much more pronounced with Jake than Neytiri, but I definately saw the attractive forces at work.  With the relationship between these trees and the atokirina' being seeds of those trees, as cited by Neytiri near the beginning to the film, the trees and the seeds are both reacting to Jake very strongly, and for the same reasons it would seem.

That said, I can see where there may be some significance to field matching with regards to the "being chosen" aspect of Ikran and Toruk, but that is seemingly ambiguous right now. 

What ever those reasons are, have not been explained yet, and probably will be left somewhat mysterious, unless J.C. decides to throw it in our faces in the sequel to bring up some plot point later on.

From an observational perspective, I think there may be an altered version of Electrostatics at work here.  Electrostatics can cause many interesting things to happen with regard to attraction and repulsion.  Considering the peculiarities of the "Unobtainium" substance on magnetics and energy in the Avatar universe, there could be something to its effect on Electrostatic attraction.  I just can not be sure what that effect would be or what it is exactly.

The Tsahaylu I have been thinking more about.  They are more like antenna, from the insect forms than the whiskers of the mammal forms, but also are many fold more complex for allowing neural intercommunication symbiotically between rider and mount. 

The ASG refers to the second set of eyes seeing into the infrared.  But since it was never revealed in the film, there is no way to get into the head of the Ikran to see what it is being motivated by if we try to identify with the creature visually.  Infrared would allow the Ikran to easily see heat sources through all of that smoke and mist.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Electrostatics make sense. There is something at work here that allows them to sense each other.

Notice that Jake's Ikran only comes back when Jake is awake, instead of already being there before he comes back. I wonder if an Avatar body would emit any form of signal when their host wasn't connected. Curious. Man I want to hunt Cameron down and have him explain things to me. I doubt it'll ever be explained fully in the movie as that would take away the mystic, but I hope that we at least get a far more detailed book than the Field Guide.

[Tanhì Tireafya'o]

Electrostatics make sense. There is something at work here that allows them to sense each other.

Notice that Jake's Ikran only comes back when Jake is awake, instead of already being there before he comes back. I wonder if an Avatar body would emit any form of signal when their host wasn't connected. Curious. Man I want to hunt Cameron down and have him explain things to me. I doubt it'll ever be explained fully in the movie as that would take away the mystic, but I hope that we at least get a far more detailed book than the Field Guide.

Just forget that, Cameron doesn't know a lot more than the movie tells you. Unless he already worked his sequal out yet. 

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Well he's been thinking about this culture for years now. It doesn't matter that he hasn't written the next skript, I'm sure he still has the rules of the world in his head. That's just good practice. You don't start writing even the first script until you have at least a rough sketch of the details.

[Txur’Itan]

Electrostatics make sense. There is something at work here that allows them to sense each other.

Notice that Jake's Ikran only comes back when Jake is awake, instead of already being there before he comes back. I wonder if an Avatar body would emit any form of signal when their host wasn't connected. Curious. Man I want to hunt Cameron down and have him explain things to me. I doubt it'll ever be explained fully in the movie as that would take away the mystic, but I hope that we at least get a far more detailed book than the Field Guide.

Just forget that, Cameron doesn't know a lot more than the movie tells you. Unless he already worked his sequel out yet. 

He stated in an interview that he had the arc for three films worked out.  The details of the culture may or may not be integral to that arc.

I think the point is, based on not just the Film, but other official sources from the team that made the film, there is much detail on the rules of the AVATAR movie universe that was pretty well thought out.  Some of those details, while similar to those we know from reality had to be bent.  Either way, I think that it is interesting to speculate on the culture of the aliens he has created.

[Coyote]

About Tsaheylu, it struck me during the mind-transfer scenes that the entire tribe is connected through Eywa. I was wondering if it added power to Eywa's transfer attempt, but also they had to be there together to show that the Tribe truly wanted Grace, and later Jake, to be a part of them.

Also, if the whole Tribe is connected through Tsaheylu bond for a mind transfer, wouldn't that lend some support to the notion that Tsaheylu among tribe members is done for a variety of reasons beyond animal riding and snusnu?

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Yeah, it does suggest that there are more uses to Tsuhaylu than what we just saw in the movie. It is a transfer of minds a passing of knowledge and strength.

Thinking of the Na'vi Warfare thread, perhaps it is their way to interrogate criminals. No one could really have secrets if Tsuhaylu could make you share your thoughts. It's a bit scary if you think of it like that. They probably have cultural customs that make it forbidden buuuut there is always a chance that someone would go against it. Forced Tsuhaylu among the Na'vi, scary stuff!

[Uniltìranyu]

I re-watched the movie.  I saw the motion of the Tree of Voices, it seems so much more pronounced with Jake than Neytiri, but I definately saw the attractive forces at work.  With the relationship between these trees and the atokirina' being seeds of those trees, as cited by Neytiri near the beginning to the film, the trees and the seeds are both reacting to Jake very strongly, and for the same reasons it would seem.

In the botany section of the ASG, there was a mention of certain plants in the Pandoran biology being both part animal and part plant, dubbed "Planimals". This could explain how the Tree of voices could detect and process the presence of Jake and Neytiri. This makes sense in my mind as the best solution to this mystery.

[lagunaloire]

There are plenty of anthropologist I know who would drop everything in a second for such an experience. Many anthropologist go into the field for long periods of time and plenty eventually just live there permanently. It's something you must consider when you get into the field.

Having just received my place at Aberdeen University to do my Masters in Anthropology, i gotta agree with you there. I would love to be able to write some form of dissertation  on the Na'vi, and in a nucleated society like a Na'vi tribe time, experience and detailed understanding of customs and also history would be essential, thus requiring years of overt observations. That aside, would be fantastic to do anyway!

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Yay for a real anthropologist finally getting to this site! I'm just a beginning student and have a feeling that I've missed a lot of stuff in my debates across the culture threads. I hope for your insight and help.

[Txur’Itan]

There are plenty of anthropologist I know who would drop everything in a second for such an experience. Many anthropologist go into the field for long periods of time and plenty eventually just live there permanently. It's something you must consider when you get into the field.

Having just received my place at Aberdeen University to do my Masters in Anthropology, i gotta agree with you there. I would love to be able to write some form of dissertation  on the Na'vi, and in a nucleated society like a Na'vi tribe time, experience and detailed understanding of customs and also history would be essential, thus requiring years of overt observations. That aside, would be fantastic to do anyway!

Kaltì ma tsmuktu, ngaru lu fpom srak?

You should parse this thread and throw your learned observations on to the discussion.  Earlier on we had some interesting topics about the tsahaylu (bond), positions and roles in the clan, and references to the txe'lan (heart).  I think I would find it most interesting to hear your point of analysis given the limited available information on screen and in the Activists Survival Guide.  Me personally, I do not have the ability to properly examine everything that I have seen, only recite my observations.  I watched the movie ten times, and observed something new each time.