Na'vi Divorce? and other mating rituals discussion! (PG-13)

[Tsamsiyu Atsteu]

I honestly don't know what to say to that.   *puts foot in mouth* I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I guess I got worked up... what's Na'vi for can you forgive my stupid ass?

[Tsu'roen]

Genetics stand against that:
"... In 30% of paternity tests commissioned by suspecting fathers and performed at the American Association of Blood Banks in the year 2000, the father was not the true biological parent." [11] 

That's Australia, ma 'eylan. You're beating a dead pa'li. They're not as monogamous as other places. I was engaged to one, I should know.

See above - it's not limited to Australia but common among ALL humans. Australians are not at all different to Americans in their infidelity - they may just be more open about it.

It is also a fact that hardly any mammals are monogamous (2-3%).

[Tsamsiyu Atsteu]

Fine forget what I said then. I don't want to fight. I'm here to learn and make friends. Oeru txoa livu.

Genetics stand against that:
"... In 30% of paternity tests commissioned by suspecting fathers and performed at the American Association of Blood Banks in the year 2000, the father was not the true biological parent." [11] 

That's Australia, ma 'eylan. You're beating a dead pa'li. They're not as monogamous as other places. I was engaged to one, I should know.

See above - it's not limited to Australia but common among ALL humans. Australians are not at all different to Americans in their infidelity - they may just be more open about it.

It is also a fact that hardly any mammals are monogamous (2-3%).

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

What does that have to do with anything. I have a right to my opinion. All I did was state what I was taught *shrug*. I'm feeling backed into a corner here.

I do not want to get into a contest here or get in trouble so I will simply say that is what I learned in my college anthropology course and stick with that.

I would be interested to see your facts.

Fair enough, but there are anthropologists who I think post on this board, and I have a feeling they are going to disagree with you.  I believe one of them already has.

Got to say, you should question your anthropology teacher a bit more. I'm majoring in anthropology and I can safely say that humans are not fully monogamous. Tsu'roen was right that we in the Western world practice "serial monogamy," but the majority of cultures out there practice polygamy.  

Don't feel cornered, this is a place of discussion. Whenever you state your opinion you must be prepared for it to be disagreed with and be prepared to back it up.  You're not starting a fight, merely a conversation.

[Tsamsiyu Atsteu]

Irayo. I was concerned as I was getting heated. I see it differently than you, that is obvious. The western world is not the only one that practices monogamy, though. China, Japan, those places are much like us and not the same culture. If we aren't then how come we marry at all then? That would make no sense, you see? I'm very confused. TO me it makes more sense to have only one mate.

What does that have to do with anything. I have a right to my opinion. All I did was state what I was taught *shrug*. I'm feeling backed into a corner here.

I do not want to get into a contest here or get in trouble so I will simply say that is what I learned in my college anthropology course and stick with that.

Got to say, you should question your anthropology teacher a bit more. I'm majoring in anthropology and I can safely say that humans are not fully monogamous. Tsu'roen was right that we in the Western world practice "serial monogamy," but the majority of cultures out there practice polygamy.  

Don't feel cornered, this is a place of discussion. Whenever you state your opinion you must be prepared for it to be disagreed with and be prepared to back it up.  You're not starting a fight, merely a conversation.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Well, naturally it makes more sense to you because it is the idea you grew up with.

Just because a culture is practices multiple marriages doesn't mean that it's a free for all. There is still structure to who they can marry, who they can mate with, ect.

Also, just because a culture practices it, doesn't mean every individual does. Polygamy is normally a sign of wealth, only a rich man can have multiple wives (there are cultures that practice the opposite which is called polyandry, but polygamy is more common) and it makes sense to want a few. You'll get more children and more people to help you around the house. One should remember that romance is normally a bonus in marriage, not the reason for it. It's often times like a business transaction.

Also, China and Japan have histories of practicing polygamy. The same with areas in the West.

Irayo. I was concerned as I was getting heated. I see it differently than you, that is obvious. The western world is not the only one that practices monogamy, though. China, Japan, those places are much like us and not the same culture. If we aren't then how come we marry at all then? That would make no sense, you see? I'm very confused. TO me it makes more sense to have only one mate.

What does that have to do with anything. I have a right to my opinion. All I did was state what I was taught *shrug*. I'm feeling backed into a corner here.

I do not want to get into a contest here or get in trouble so I will simply say that is what I learned in my college anthropology course and stick with that.

Got to say, you should question your anthropology teacher a bit more. I'm majoring in anthropology and I can safely say that humans are not fully monogamous. Tsu'roen was right that we in the Western world practice "serial monogamy," but the majority of cultures out there practice polygamy.  

Don't feel cornered, this is a place of discussion. Whenever you state your opinion you must be prepared for it to be disagreed with and be prepared to back it up.  You're not starting a fight, merely a conversation.

[Tsamsiyu Atsteu]

polyandry! Irayo! I knew what it was just couldn't think of the word! It's been a couple years since that class. I don't get the businesslike air about marraige you suggest though. It doesn't make sense. I see advantages to both, but more for only mating with one you care for. I think it makes it more likely for the other person to be faithful, if they have a bo0nd of some sort aka love. You have a motivation to care and protect. But polygamy in the West is the FDLS Mormons, and that is a religious practice that was outlawed. That is the only thing I can think of as an example of it in the West. China and Japan are more monogamous now, though with China's decreasing female population, more of them are forgoing marraige at all because finding a mate is becoming so hard.

Well, naturally it makes more sense to you because it is the idea you grew up with.

Just because a culture is practices multiple marriages doesn't mean that it's a free for all. There is still structure to who they can marry, who they can mate with, ect.

Also, just because a culture practices it, doesn't mean every individual does. Polygamy is normally a sign of wealth, only a rich man can have multiple wives (there are cultures that practice the opposite which is called polyandry, but polygamy is more common) and it makes sense to want a few. You'll get more children and more people to help you around the house. One should remember that romance is normally a bonus in marriage, not the reason for it. It's often times like a business transaction.

Also, China and Japan have histories of practicing polygamy. The same with areas in the West.

[Rolyu]

What you're not understanding is that humans are monogamous because of their culture, and even in monogamous cultures most people aren't monogamous.  Take the United States.  95% of 40,000 people ages 15-44 interviewed in 2002 stated that they had engaged in premarital sex.  40 - 50 % of first marriages end in divorce, and many of these people get married a second, third, or even fourth time.  The third highest reason for divorce is because one or both partners cheated.

If humans, by nature, were monogamous, then we would have sex with one person and be with them forever.  There would be no need to institutionalize marriage, because that ceremonial binding would be redundant.  A monogamous human will pick a mate and stay with them for the rest of their life.

That's awesome if you are a virgin and you're saving yourself for marriage.  You are a member of 5% of the (mostly) monogamous population.

I'm in Anthropology right now, and my professor said that humans are not monogamous by nature and neither are monkeys.  (Not even gibbons and bonobos.) So take a professor's opinion with a grain of salt.  They aren't always right. 

But back to the Na'vi.  I'm going to watch the movie again tonight, and I think that during the sleepy scene, I am going to look and see how many Na'vi are in that giant family hammock, and how many of them are adults?  How many children?  I'll let you know when I get back.

[Txur’Itan]

The world's leading cause of marriage is parents.

The world's leading cause of divorce is marriage.

The worlds leading cause of cheating is being in a relationship.

The worlds leading cause of being in a relationship with a mate, is being in a relationship with a mate.

[Zefanaya]

What does that have to do with anything. I have a right to my opinion. All I did was state what I was taught *shrug*. I'm feeling backed into a corner here.

I do not want to get into a contest here or get in trouble so I will simply say that is what I learned in my college anthropology course and stick with that.

I would be interested to see your facts.

Fair enough, but there are anthropologists who I think post on this board, and I have a feeling they are going to disagree with you.  I believe one of them already has.

Ok this has gotten out of control and is turning into a contest and/or a fight which I will not have. From now on facts only please, it was my fault that this started turning into a battle (a battle driven more by ethics and personal felling and beliefs) when I said:

Irayo ma tsmuke, I am glad you caught that as I did, not you are also completely correct.

let's keep it professional.


I do however have to say irayo to all of you because this is a strong discussion, and getting a little out of my league so I am afraid I won't be of much help until I do a little more research.

Eywa ngahu

[Tsa'räni]

Let me just say this final OT thing...

There is no contest or fight here and nothing is out of control.  I have spoken with Tsamsiyu in PM's and it was a very pleasant conversation.

I always have, and will continue, to ask people to provide reasoning to back up their opinions if I do not agree with them.  And I will ask people to provide evidence when they are stating things as facts that I don't agree with.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with this and, in fact, it's the very foundation of discussion and debate, which is one thing this site is about.

But if someone is feeling bad because of the way a discussion is going, then I will continue to simply step away from the discussion like I did in this thread.

[Zefanaya]

Let me just say this final OT thing...

There is no contest or fight here and nothing is out of control.  I have spoken with Tsamsiyu in PM's and it was a very pleasant conversation.

I always have, and will continue, to ask people to provide reasoning to back up their opinions if I do not agree with them.  And I will ask people to provide evidence when they are stating things as facts that I don't agree with.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with this and, in fact, it's the very foundation of discussion and debate, which is one thing this site is about.

But if someone is feeling bad because of the way a discussion is going, then I will continue to simply step away from the discussion like I did in this thread.

as long as there is no hostility, than I am fine with any discussion, and reviewing (again) what was posted I see that it was not done with hostile intent I just wanted to make that clear, this forum and this community I fell should be a welcoming and inviting place for all (there is a reason we are the largest Avatar fan community), and I always ask that a formal conversation or in this case debate is based from fact and not personal felling (although those are important to every debate, and I am guilty of posting out of feelings and no fact). Now that I have managed to get us of track (sorry) let's get back to a fun discussion (feel free to continue previous debate) with a new question that falls in the lines of this thread.

my friend wants to know if the Na'vi have a sort of dating process or if all marriages are sort of prearranged?

Eywa ngahu niwotx ma ayeylan.

and once again sorry for derailing the conversation.

[Zefanaya]

polyandry! Irayo! I knew what it was just couldn't think of the word! It's been a couple years since that class. I don't get the businesslike air about marraige you suggest though. It doesn't make sense. I see advantages to both, but more for only mating with one you care for. I think it makes it more likely for the other person to be faithful, if they have a bo0nd of some sort aka love. You have a motivation to care and protect. But polygamy in the West is the FDLS Mormons, and that is a religious practice that was outlawed. That is the only thing I can think of as an example of it in the West. China and Japan are more monogamous now, though with China's decreasing female population, more of them are forgoing marraige at all because finding a mate is becoming so hard.

Well, naturally it makes more sense to you because it is the idea you grew up with.

Just because a culture is practices multiple marriages doesn't mean that it's a free for all. There is still structure to who they can marry, who they can mate with, ect.

Also, just because a culture practices it, doesn't mean every individual does. Polygamy is normally a sign of wealth, only a rich man can have multiple wives (there are cultures that practice the opposite which is called polyandry, but polygamy is more common) and it makes sense to want a few. You'll get more children and more people to help you around the house. One should remember that romance is normally a bonus in marriage, not the reason for it. It's often times like a business transaction.

Also, China and Japan have histories of practicing polygamy. The same with areas in the West.

very interesting, Irayo to both of you, I agree with that just because a culture practices polygamy does not mean it is free for all, and that not everyone in a culture practices it.

Also Irayo I have learned much about this topic over the past few days and intend to do my own research on this topic, it has been something I have wanted to study.

Eywa ngahu

[Mithcoriel]

What mating habits did our ancestors, the cavemen, have? I don't know if any definitive knowledge about this exists, but at the very least they are usualy portrayed as polygamous, it seems to me.
Even in the rare animal species that are monogamous, both partners seem to be cheating a lot, as that is beneficial to the genes (while still not missing out on the advantages of pair bonds, like a stable family to raise the children, bastards or not.)

I think polygamy was particularly common in the past, not so much in the present. If you want a historical document, the bible's old testament is a good example. Plenty of polygamy in there. Also, aren't many muslim countries still polygamous?

But could it be that we are kind of missing the point with this discussion? Wasn't this about wether Na'vi have divorces and hence multiple mates in a life? If humans are serially monogamous, hence occasionally break up with their partner or have divorces, well, maybe Na'vi are completely monogamous, so they really stay together?
Or was the are-humans-polygamous-discussion about wether Na'vi cheat on their partners or not? Well, we know for a fact humans occasionally cheat on their partners, wether we call them monogamous or not.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Polygamy is still common in the modern world, just not so much in the West.

Tirey, don't worry. This thread has not gotten out of control. Just because people disagree with each other doesn't mean that a fight has broken out. This is just how discussions are conducted. Opinions must come in to move it forward and a "fact only" thread wouldn't go any where and would probably lead to an acutal fight.

I sense no true hostility here, if I do I will say something.

[Zefanaya]

Polygamy is still common in the modern world, just not so much in the West.

Tirey, don't worry. This thread has not gotten out of control. Just because people disagree with each other doesn't mean that a fight has broken out. This is just how discussions are conducted. Opinions must come in to move it forward and a "fact only" thread wouldn't go any where and would probably lead to an acutal fight.

I sense no true hostility here, if I do I will say something.

True polygamy is practiced more in the east and in past times, I just found out that we are going to be studying this at my youth group on Sunday (wow amazing timing makes you foll like you are being watched).

What mating habits did our ancestors, the cavemen, have? I don't know if any definitive knowledge about this exists, but at the very least they are usualy portrayed as polygamous, it seems to me.
Even in the rare animal species that are monogamous, both partners seem to be cheating a lot, as that is beneficial to the genes (while still not missing out on the advantages of pair bonds, like a stable family to raise the children, bastards or not.)

I think polygamy was particularly common in the past, not so much in the present. If you want a historical document, the bible's old testament is a good example. Plenty of polygamy in there. Also, aren't many muslim countries still polygamous?

But could it be that we are kind of missing the point with this discussion? Wasn't this about wether Na'vi have divorces and hence multiple mates in a life? If humans are serially monogamous, hence occasionally break up with their partner or have divorces, well, maybe Na'vi are completely monogamous, so they really stay together?
Or was the are-humans-polygamous-discussion about wether Na'vi cheat on their partners or not? Well, we know for a fact humans occasionally cheat on their partners, wether we call them monogamous or not.

I agree that we (in the west at least) are serially monogamous , so what this discussion is leaning to is that the Na'vi are completely monogamous meaning that once you are mated you stay mated even if your partner dies (according to my friend Nate, complete monogamy is practiced by Catholics (he is catholic) it is considered to be a sin or cheating to be married again after being divorced).

Eywa ngahu.

[Rolyu]

Ah, but you can still get that marriage annulled if you can prove that it wasn't a complete marriage in the first place.  (It's complicated.)  And I have to say, Catholics *want* to be monogamous, but it doesn't always work out that way.  We try though. 

[Zefanaya]

Ah, but you can still get that marriage annulled if you can prove that it wasn't a complete marriage in the first place.  (It's complicated.)  And I have to say, Catholics *want* to be monogamous, but it doesn't always work out that way.  We try though. 

I agree and understand, in the 2007 script (I just read the whole thing it is epic) Mo'at tells Neytiri that she can choose not to be mated to Jake (even though the deed is done), the following is a quote from the 2007 script

He sees TSU'TEY striding toward them, his face a mask of fury.
You!
TSU'TEY
Tsu'tey walks right up and SLAMS Jake in the chest with both hands. It is so unexpected, that Jake topples on his ass.
TSU'TEY You mated with this woman?!
Oh s***.
GRACE
Jake stands. He reaches out for Neytiri. She goes to him, clutching his hand.
MO'AT Is this true?
NEYTIRI (subtitled)
We are mated before Eywa. It is done.
Tsu'tey turns to Mo'at and Eytukan, his face anguished.
95.
TSU'TEY (subtitled)
Neytiri was promised to me! Everything is changing. Everything is being destroyed!
Tsu'tey points at Jake, his pain shifting to rage.
TSU'TEY (subtitled)
These aliens kill everything they touch, like poison.
MO'AT Neytiri! If you choose this path, you can
never be Tsahik. Your life will be wasted.
Neytiri looks at her mother -- sees the grief in her eyes.
NEYTIRI I have chosen.
Tsu'tey draws his knife and --
Yeeeeeaaa!
TSU'TEY
LUNGES AT JAKE, who's ready this time -- he sidesteps, blocking the knife, and elbows Tsu'tey HARD in the face.
Tsu'tey reels back, nose bleeding. He starts forward on a second attack but --
Eytukan grabs his arm and spins him around.
EYTUKAN (subtitled)
Stop! This is not a proper challenge.
Tsu'tey glares at Jake while sheathing his knife.
TSU'TEY I challenge you.
GRACE Jake, don't --
I accept.
JAKE
96.
CUT TO:
INT./EXT. SAMSON - DAY
QUARITCH rides left seat as Trudy pilots through the mountains. She glances at him, then toggles the aircom.
TRUDY Loveshack this is Samson One Six inbound
hot to your pos. I have Colonel Quaritch with me and --
But Quaritch SLAMS the switch, cutting her off.
QUARITCH Did I tell you to announce us?
TRUDY Sorry sir, it's procedure.
INT. SHACK Norm punches buttons on the comms console.
NORM Samson One Six? Trudy?
(no answer) Crap.
He looks helplessly at Jake and Grace's link units -- no way to warn them.
INT. HOMETREE - DAY
TSU'TEY AND JAKE square off. Each holds a long, solid staff. The entire clan crowds around them in a circle.
GRACE What the hell are you doing?
JAKE It's the only way to get him to goddamn
listen.
TSU'TEY LEAPS at Jake with a sharp cry and Jake parries with his staff. The staves CLACK off each other as the two combatants LEAP, DUCK and STRIKE furiously.
Tsu'tey sweeps Jake off his feet with a roundhouse hit to the ankles, but --
Jake ROLLS out of it and catches Tsu'tey in the belly with the blunt end.
97.
EXT. SITE 26 - DAY
TRUDY'S SAMSON lands. QUARITCH and a posse of troopers jump down and rush the Shack.
INT. COMMONS
TSU'TEY wades in with a series of short, sharp blows. Jake swings with equal fury. Both fighting from the heart.
The staves whistle through the air, and CLACK together like gunshots. Jake presses hard, and Tsu'tey staggers back, stumbling as --
Jake lands a SOLID HIT, dropping him to his knees, just as -- INT. SHACK
THE INNER DOOR bangs open and QUARITCH stomps toward Grace's Link controls.
NORM Hey, hang on, you can't interrupt a link
in progress, it's dangerous -- wait! Quaritch shoves him aside and SMACKS his fist down on the
POWER switch. Grace's unit goes dead and -- INT. COMMONS
AVATAR GRACE'S eyes roll back and she keels over. NEYTIRI barely catches her before she hits the ground.
JAKE parries as Tsu'tey swings but then --
Jake's eyes go blank just as -- K-RACK! Tsu'tey puts one alongside his head. Jake sprawls, completely inert. Tsu'tey pokes him with his staff, then raises it and lets out a piercing VICTORY CRY.

Eywa ngahu

[Tsu'roen]

Ah, but you can still get that marriage annulled if you can prove that it wasn't a complete marriage in the first place.  (It's complicated.)  And I have to say, Catholics *want* to be monogamous, but it doesn't always work out that way.  We try though. 

I agree and understand, in the 2007 script (I just read the whole thing it is epic) Mo'at tells Neytiri that she can choose not to be mated to Jake (even though the deed is done), the following is a quote from the 2007 script

...
TSU'TEY You mated with this woman?!
...
MO'AT Is this true?
NEYTIRI (subtitled)
We are mated before Eywa. It is done.
...
MO'AT
Neytiri! If you choose this path, you can never be Tsahik. Your life will be wasted.
Neytiri looks at her mother -- sees the grief in her eyes.
NEYTIRI
I have chosen.
...

I think you can see it a bit like the rules for annulling a catholic marriage - it is quiet possible if there are accepted reasons for an annulment:

Annulment (Catholic Church)
...
Diriment impediments or grounds for annulment include:

• Consanguinity
• Psychological state precluding ability to consent
• No intention, when marrying, to contract a lifelong relationship (simulation of consent)
• No intention, when marrying, to have children
• Deception of one party by the other in order to obtain consent, and if the partner had been aware of the truth, would not have consented to marry
• Abduction with the intent to compel marriage (known as raptus), constitutes an impediment as long as he/she remains in the kidnapper's power. (The abduction of a man constitutes an impediment in the Eastern Church but not in the Latin church.)
• Failure to adhere to requirements of canon law for marriages, such as clandestinity
• Impediment of Crime, bringing about physically (or through moral cooperation) the death of one's own spouse or the spouse of another, with the intention of marriage
• Undispensed defect of form, form being marrying in the presence of a priest or deacon and according to the required form of words.

...

But returning the dish just because you changed your mind after taking a bite isn't allowed.

I think as for the Catholic Church Neytiri had sufficient grounds for an annulment if she wanted out:
- No intention, when marrying, to contract a lifelong relationship - at that time Jake had no reason to believe that he could stay with her for live but had to assume that he must leave after his tour of 6 years.
- Deception of one party by the other in order to obtain consent, and if the partner had been aware of the truth, would not have consented to marry - Well I don't need to explain that, Neytiri did that quiet well twice in the movie:

...
JAKE
You have to leave, or you will die.
MO'AT
Are you certain of this?
JAKE
They sent me here to learn your ways. So one day I could bring this message and then you would believe it.
NEYTIRI
What are you saying, Jake? You knew this would happen?
JAKE
Yes. --
Look, at first it was just orders. Then everything changed. I fell in love, I fell in love with the forest and with the Omaticaya People - with you.
NEYTIRI
I trusted you. I trusted you!
JAKE
Trust me now. Please!
NEYTIRI
...(in Na'vi)...
You will never be one of the People!

...
(After the death of Eytukan)
NEYTIRI to Jake
Get away. GET AWAY! Get away from here, never come back!

NEYTIRI (subtitled)
We are mated before Eywa. It is done.

I think the way Neytiri says this means that for Na'vi "marriages" after the bond is made before Eywa there is no way back until one of the mates dies.
And so far we do not even know if the Na'vi can (or will) chose another mate after their original mate died. They may as well just sit down and die themselves to follow their mate to Eywa.

[Rolyu]

Yikes!  That fight scene is intense.

I keep seeing things in the script that I wish were in the movie... it would have enriched the plot so much!