Na'vi Divorce? and other mating rituals discussion! (PG-13)

[Zefanaya]

Yikes!  That fight scene is intense.

I keep seeing things in the script that I wish were in the movie... it would have enriched the plot so much!

it was and I really wish the end of the script was in the movie

Ah, but you can still get that marriage annulled if you can prove that it wasn't a complete marriage in the first place.  (It's complicated.)  And I have to say, Catholics *want* to be monogamous, but it doesn't always work out that way.  We try though. 

I agree and understand, in the 2007 script (I just read the whole thing it is epic) Mo'at tells Neytiri that she can choose not to be mated to Jake (even though the deed is done), the following is a quote from the 2007 script

...
TSU'TEY You mated with this woman?!
...
MO'AT Is this true?
NEYTIRI (subtitled)
We are mated before Eywa. It is done.
...
MO'AT
Neytiri! If you choose this path, you can never be Tsahik. Your life will be wasted.
Neytiri looks at her mother -- sees the grief in her eyes.
NEYTIRI
I have chosen.
...

I think you can see it a bit like the rules for annulling a catholic marriage - it is quiet possible if there are accepted reasons for an annulment:

Annulment (Catholic Church)
...
Diriment impediments or grounds for annulment include:

• Consanguinity
• Psychological state precluding ability to consent
• No intention, when marrying, to contract a lifelong relationship (simulation of consent)
• No intention, when marrying, to have children
• Deception of one party by the other in order to obtain consent, and if the partner had been aware of the truth, would not have consented to marry
• Abduction with the intent to compel marriage (known as raptus), constitutes an impediment as long as he/she remains in the kidnapper's power. (The abduction of a man constitutes an impediment in the Eastern Church but not in the Latin church.)
• Failure to adhere to requirements of canon law for marriages, such as clandestinity
• Impediment of Crime, bringing about physically (or through moral cooperation) the death of one's own spouse or the spouse of another, with the intention of marriage
• Undispensed defect of form, form being marrying in the presence of a priest or deacon and according to the required form of words.

...

But returning the dish just because you changed your mind after taking a bite isn't allowed.

I think as for the Catholic Church Neytiri had sufficient grounds for an annulment if she wanted out:
- No intention, when marrying, to contract a lifelong relationship - at that time Jake had no reason to believe that he could stay with her for live but had to assume that he must leave after his tour of 6 years.
- Deception of one party by the other in order to obtain consent, and if the partner had been aware of the truth, would not have consented to marry - Well I don't need to explain that, Neytiri did that quiet well twice in the movie:

...
JAKE
You have to leave, or you will die.
MO'AT
Are you certain of this?
JAKE
They sent me here to learn your ways. So one day I could bring this message and then you would believe it.
NEYTIRI
What are you saying, Jake? You knew this would happen?
JAKE
Yes. --
Look, at first it was just orders. Then everything changed. I fell in love, I fell in love with the forest and with the Omaticaya People - with you.
NEYTIRI
I trusted you. I trusted you!
JAKE
Trust me now. Please!
NEYTIRI
...(in Na'vi)...
You will never be one of the People!

...
(After the death of Eytukan)
NEYTIRI to Jake
Get away. GET AWAY! Get away from here, never come back!

NEYTIRI (subtitled)
We are mated before Eywa. It is done.

I think the way Neytiri says this means that for Na'vi "marriages" after the bond is made before Eywa there is no way back until one of the mates dies.
And so far we do not even know if the Na'vi can (or will) chose another mate after their original mate died. They may as well just sit down and die themselves to follow their mate to Eywa.

agreed 100% but I think we must also do some research on Native American culture (as they are very much like Native Americans) I will do some research on Monday, I wonder just how many Catholic annulment rules the Na'vi might follow (it would help to know JC's religion) or was this done because Jake really was not Na'vi he was a "child of the Omaticaya" but not a real Na'vi.

Also new question: Do you guy's think that it is possible that the Na'vi ever marry people from other clans? (e.x. a Omaticayan male marrying an Eastern Sea Ikran clan member).

[Tsu'roen]

Also new question: Do you guy's think that it is possible that the Na'vi ever marry people from other clans? (e.x. a Omaticayan male marrying an Eastern Sea Ikran clan member).

I think so - otherwise they would be totally inbreed.

[Zefanaya]

Also new question: Do you guy's think that it is possible that the Na'vi ever marry people from other clans? (e.x. a Omaticayan male marrying an Eastern Sea Ikran clan member).

I think so - otherwise they would be totally inbreed.

yoyr right did not really think about that.

[Nawma_taronyu]

divorce, i doubt it, the shahalu,(i know im spelling that wrong) with there mate is sharing in everything, not necicarly there memories but in there thoughts and feelings, meaning at that single moment you know everything and would instantly choose right then, so divorce is highly unlikely, i seriously doubt it.

[Rolyu]

If that were the case, why did it shock Neytiri that Jake was sent to them for a purpose?  She was utterly surprised and upset when she found out, and was ready to ditch him right there.

[Zefanaya]

We can not think of divorce in the human manner, I chose the word divorce as it fit best, what I mean is a confirmed and permeant separation to two that have been mated before Eywa. I believe that "divorce" is possible in an extreme situation (such as when the Na'vi found out that Jake had betrayed them), it would not occur in some form of court it would just be decided that the two will never see or interact in a romantic way again (as someone would probably either be killed (if the Na'vi have death penalty) or banished). I really don;t want to restate the entire forum as I am using my phone so.

Eywa ngahu

[Teyl Maktoyu Ayfìwopxä]

I dont think Na'Vi would divorce, they grow up in a clan, with the same people all time, by the time you have to hunt for your own Ikran, you will be adult and know most of others, so you'll know who to mate with.

By the way, people here often stay together for other people's money/sexual appeal/good payed jobs, etc...
The Na'Vi dont have all that, they just love eachother, they dont mate for money, sexuall appeal/ good payed jobs, because they DON'T HAVE MONEY!!!

That's what screws our world and marriages.

[Swokéyan]

Your totally right :<

[Zefanaya]

Your totally right :<

I agree that the Na'vi probably would not divorce, I think a banishment like thing would be as close to the seperation of a couple. I will get into this more when I have access to my computer posting from my iPod touch.

Eywa ngahu.

[Mithcoriel]

Here's a question: I was debating with some german-speaking people, and they suggested that maybe Neytiri and Jake didn't actually do you-know-what in the mating scene, they merely married each other. I pointed out that it's clearly referred to as "mating" and "You mated with this woman?".
They pointed to a dictionary that translates the word "to mate" as "to marry". I insist that in english, if you ask someone if he "mated" with someone, it means sex, not some form of companionship. But I can't help the fact that it's translated as "marry".

Sooo, what do you guys think of that idea? That Jake and Neytiri didn't actually do the stuff you do to make kids, but did some kind of biological wedding ritual that connects them for life? o_O

[Zefanaya]

Here's a question: I was debating with some german-speaking people, and they suggested that maybe Neytiri and Jake didn't actually do you-know-what in the mating scene, they merely married each other. I pointed out that it's clearly referred to as "mating" and "You mated with this woman?".
They pointed to a dictionary that translates the word "to mate" as "to marry". I insist that in english, if you ask someone if he "mated" with someone, it means sex, not some form of companionship. But I can't help the fact that it's translated as "marry".

Sooo, what do you guys think of that idea? That Jake and Neytiri didn't actually do the stuff you do to make kids, but did some kind of biological wedding ritual that connects them for life? o_O

That is a very good theory, the 2007 script does not help much (I base a lot of my theories off of that), it did say at the end of the '07 script that Neytiri was pregnant, however we have no idea how much time had passed between the RDA's being sent away and the time at the end of the script (however it said that Neytiri was "clearly" pregnant which means about 6 months since conception, and the entire movie took place over about 6 month's, so I think that it would have to have taken place around their "wedding" or mating). I really do appreciate that idea though and intend to do some searching to try and find out more.

Eywa ngahu ma eylan.


EDIT: I just remembered that something I read a while back. In an interview JC said the motion capture actors had to "be careful" with their movements during the "mating scene" in order to achieve a PG-13 rating (so this means... well you know).

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

A good idea, though interviews with Cameron seem to negate it. "They had to move very carefully," ect, ect. We must remember that Cameron probably wasn't looking at the word "mated" in that much detail. It's bad movie-making practice to pick the most obscure definition of a word, especially for a blockbuster like Avatar that's meant to reach as many people as possible.

[Txur’Itan]

The earliest definition of that particular word comes from joining, or bringing together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_(colloquialism)#Origin  I don't think J.C. Meant this version considering the context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mated  This is the definition implied from the context of the film.

If we go based on the possible origin of the word mate, I think kissing may lead to regicide within the Na'vi, it doesn't make my theory correct, but it is fun to speculate. 

[Zefanaya]

The earliest definition of that particular word comes from joining, or bringing together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mate_(colloquialism)#Origin  I don't think J.C. Meant this version considering the context.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mated  This is the definition implied from the context of the film.

If we go based on the possible origin of the word mate, I think kissing may lead to regicide within the Na'vi, it doesn't make my theory correct, but it is fun to speculate. 

I am going to have to agree with you on this.

A good idea, though interviews with Cameron seem to negate it. "They had to move very carefully," ect, ect. We must remember that Cameron probably wasn't looking at the word "mated" in that much detail. It's bad movie-making practice to pick the most obscure definition of a word, especially for a blockbuster like Avatar that's meant to reach as many people as possible.

JC was really picking about every little detail of the movie, if it went in their he researched and speculated the heck out of it, the dude was so picky he worked on one minor plant doing sketch after sketch for hours and day's just because everything needed to flow and look good, this was all for the sake of him wanting as many people as possible to like the movie and become a fan of it, and he is a bit of perfectionist (in a good way).

Eywa ngahu niwotx ma ayeylan

[Txonyä'ite]

Also new question: Do you guy's think that it is possible that the Na'vi ever marry people from other clans? (e.x. a Omaticayan male marrying an Eastern Sea Ikran clan member).

I think so - otherwise they would be totally inbreed.

I thought Tsu'tey was from a different clan. His full name is Tsu'tey of the Rongloa, son of Ateyo in the scene where jake comes back as toruk makto. Would that mean son of ateyo of the Rongloa clan?

[Swokéyan]

Hmm i dont think that would make any sense since only memers from the same clan mate together, and Tsu'tey actually had to mate with Neytiri before Jake was there, right?
Dont know if thats all true though

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Also new question: Do you guy's think that it is possible that the Na'vi ever marry people from other clans? (e.x. a Omaticayan male marrying an Eastern Sea Ikran clan member).

I think so - otherwise they would be totally inbreed.

I thought Tsu'tey was from a different clan. His full name is Tsu'tey of the Rongloa, son of Ateyo in the scene where jake comes back as toruk makto. Would that mean son of ateyo of the Rongloa clan?

Careful there, I think you're mixing the words Tribe and Clan.

Tribe and Clan are not words that can be used interchangeably. The Omatikaya is a Tribe, meaning a group of people who unite and live together and are made up of many different families. A Clan on the other hand is just one large extended family. For example, my name is Kristi Boes and I am part of the "Boes" Clan.

So the name Rongloa could refer to his Clan name, which would just mean what family he was from not necessarily what Tribe he was from.  Though we currently don't know enough about name structure to know for sure.

[Txur’Itan]

Hmm i dont think that would make any sense since only memers from the same clan mate together, and Tsu'tey actually had to mate with Neytiri before Jake was there, right?
Dont know if thats all true though

That would be a considerable problem with Neytiri saying "Mated for Life" and her saying that to Jake.  I would basically paint Neytiri in a different social light than depicted in the film.  So far, Tsu'Tey and Neytiri were probably Friends, but most likely not Mated yet.

Also new question: Do you guy's think that it is possible that the Na'vi ever marry people from other clans? (e.x. a Omaticayan male marrying an Eastern Sea Ikran clan member).

I think so - otherwise they would be totally inbreed.

I thought Tsu'tey was from a different clan. His full name is Tsu'tey of the Rongloa, son of Ateyo in the scene where Jake comes back as toruk makto. Would that mean son of ateyo of the Rongloa clan?

According to what I remember from the script uses of Tskaha and Rongloa, where Mo'at, Eytukan, Neytiri and Tsu'Tey were concerned, those words were used like family lineage of some kind.  They are maybe more equivalent to family/last/sur names, and the clan was not referenced when saying a full name, but was added after the full name as a part of separate value in the conversational Discourse.  If they were entirely Separate Clans, that would be interesting to know for certain, but I am not getting that impression from their usage in full proper names.  

Also new question: Do you guy's think that it is possible that the Na'vi ever marry people from other clans? (e.x. a Omaticayan male marrying an Eastern Sea Ikran clan member).

I think so - otherwise they would be totally inbreed.

I thought Tsu'tey was from a different clan. His full name is Tsu'tey of the Rongloa, son of Ateyo in the scene where jake comes back as toruk makto. Would that mean son of ateyo of the Rongloa clan?

Careful there, I think you're mixing the words Tribe and Clan.

Tribe and Clan are not words that can be used interchangeably. The Omatikaya is a Tribe, meaning a group of people who unite and live together and are made up of many different families. A Clan on the other hand is just one large extended family. For example, my name is Kristi Boes and I am part of the "Boes" Clan.

So the name Rongloa could refer to his Clan name, which would just mean what family he was from not necessarily what Tribe he was from.  Though we currently don't know enough about name structure to know for sure.

What Tìng said... 

[Col Quaritch]

Heres my short thought on Na'vi Devorce. I dont think it happens. Okay they are deffently a passionite bunch and you know their emotions instantly thats for sure but they dont strike me as the type to cheat on their mates. Ok I know what his face and whats her face were to be mated but thats not the same as being married. Now if there were to be say a devorce of any kind I geet the sneaking feeling its really messy and probally on the line of a Klingon going OUCH that had to hurt.

[Zefanaya]

Heres my short thought on Na'vi Devorce. I dont think it happens. Okay they are deffently a passionite bunch and you know their emotions instantly thats for sure but they dont strike me as the type to cheat on their mates. Ok I know what his face and whats her face were to be mated but thats not the same as being married. Now if there were to be say a devorce of any kind I geet the sneaking feeling its really messy and probally on the line of a Klingon going OUCH that had to hurt.

I think I will include my definition of divorce (for this thread) in the title from now on. You are on the correct line of thinking with you reference to Klingon's, the Na'vi have no "legal" form of marriage (being mated before Eywa, which has been brought to my attention during the time that this thread has been open is done for the sake of testing the bond, to see if the two make a good couple (not just heat of the moment let's mate right by the glowing tree (movie reference))), I would think that a divorce would be like a banishment you can never see your "mate" again and you can not be in the clan, or if the Na'vi believe in the death penalty it could get "messy" (to quote @ Col Quaritch) but that is some what off topic.

and just a reminder this is a thread that is open to other mating (marriage) rituals, like speculation on dating, arranged marriages, how other clan's might govern things, you know stuff like that. I also wanted to say irayo to all that have helped spark and keep the flame alive on a fairly controversial topic.

Eywa ngahu