Na'vi full name structure

[Tsu'roen]

...
Still, let's say you must go through this ceremony before you're allowed to mate. The younger Na'vi could still travel to different tribes and find a mate, they would just have to wait until after the ceremony before doing the deed. When I said "marry into" I meant "marry" more on the lines of becoming part of another tribe rather than marrying an individual.

yes ... they may just have that test in the clan of their mate and stay there ...

[Tsu'roen]

I disagree.

Jake is not a natural born Clan member.

The ASG is quite accurate when it comes to Cultural facts and is considered many to be Canon. Jake is not exactly a good example again since he was probably a lot older than your typical Clan mate.

still, he had to go through both of those tests so why would they change the traditional order?

[ShadowedSin]

Okay your info is again a bit off.

Uniltaron is stated to be when one finds their dream hunt. It has nothing to do with Lineage. And in the movie all they stated that he became a member of the people. The given words you are referring to are the same as someone saying "Aragorn son of Arathorn". There is not outward proof stating that any of the rites of passage have anything to do with names.

And since the book is a lot more extensive on the information (barring illegal words) it is a FULL avatar franchise release. And is full canon. So it is more than likely that Jake had his ceremonies done in the opposite order for some other reason. Also the actual mention of taking a mate for Jake comes after both ceremonies and there is no mention of either in that he had to wait to take a mate after a given one. The ASG covers this again explicitly. It is Iknimaya that decides if you can gain a Mate, Uniltaron allows you to become a hunter.

Quoting my edit.

If I remember correctly Jake's first hunt comes before the Iknimaya. So it is more than possible that the Rites can be done out of order. One specifically deals with the right to be a Hunter, and the other deals with being an Ikran Rider. Jake also is more of a physical kind of guy, it is quite likely he could just shown he was more ready for one than the other. That means that traditionally it is Uniltaron and then Iknimaya. Otherwise again the ASG states Dream hunt then Ikran bonding for full Clan membership.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

I like this thread. So many smart people--and so polite. But here is something that has not been brought up. The Na'vi as a people are neolithic. The Omaticaya are primarily hunters, BUT the Na'vi seem to be hunter/gatherer (/fishermen?--I am specifically wondering about those Na'vi who live on islands or the nearly infinite coastline--oh yeah, and the Eskimo Na'vi--what they do is beyond me).

The "hunter class" (male and female) go through everything you smart people said but there MUST also be a gatherer class and a weaver class (well, class is too strong of a word, how about "gatherer-yu" and "weaver-yu" and now that i think of it, they do fish. I am not sure if ONLY the hunters fish (with fishing arrows)--and spears--they show Na'vi with spears in the ASG--I am considering "official Avatar Art" as canon.

So, yes yes yes, you all are right (for the ay-hunter-yu), but the rest of the clan has to have different rituals, equal in status to the Uniltaron. Perhaps the weavers have a dream(weave?) where they must find the vision for their family "crest" or whatever the term is for the house design. This would make sense (PURE SPECULATION! Just an anti-flame disclaimer ) as the Omaticaya are legendary for their woven designs. Also, there are the potters, and the plains clans--who probably hunt as well. Okay, so just some thought. Byefornow.

[ShadowedSin]

Well, since Uniltaron is just mentioned to be the one that gives you a spirit Animal. I don't see it being one strictly for hunters. (Spirit Animal being totem) and they do have weavers as one of the given vocab means weaver

Perhaps what we need to know strictly is what allows mating, Iknimaya OR Uniltaron.

IT could be a straight line or it could be that for a warrior to get a mate they have to have an Ikran. That would make sense.

What we need is more info so we can make a better hypothesis rather than the narrow band presented in the ASG and the movie.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Well, since Uniltaron is just mentioned to be the one that gives you a spirit Animal. I don't see it being one strictly for hunters. (Spirit Animal being totem) and they do have weavers as one of the given vocab means weaver

Perhaps what we need to know strictly is what allows mating, Iknimaya OR Uniltaron.

IT could be a straight line or it could be that for a warrior to get a mate they have to have an Ikran. That would make sense.

What we need is more info so we can make a better hypothesis rather than the narrow band presented in the ASG and the movie.

From a (human) aboriginal perspective, the ability to provide for a family precludes obtaining a spouse. The selection of a (providing) spouse entails examining their ability to provide. Strong hunters, big hunters, skilled hunters; these are all desirable spouses. Clever warriors, clever gatherers, efficient managers and laborers, as well as tireless workers, and above all character are also traits that are admirable. So training in, obtaining, and proving your skills/traits/character shows the tribe (and the tutee) your prowess. The women of the tribe want strong, fearless, efficient providers, and they have their own skills (gathering, weaving, pottery, nurturing, even hunting or of being a warrior) that they display as well.

So from this perspective, I think it would mean that whatever order things go in, the "approval" for mating must be preceded by a display of worth to self, spouse, and tribe. Srak?

[Txur’Itan]

Spoiler: On topic

My impression is that the Na'vi names follow partly a similar structure like Icelandic (traditional Scandinavian) names but with the difference of having an additional family (lineage) name inserted in-between.

The Icelandic name structure is:

Male:
(name) (father's name)+son
Example: Leif Ericson (Leif, son of Eric)

Female:
(name) (father's name)+dottir (dottir=daughter)

Optional in both cases is the use of the mother's name instead the father's.


The Na'vi structure seems to be as follows:

Male:
(name) te (family) (father's name)+'itan
Example: Tsu'tey te Rongloa Atey'itan

Female:
(name) te (family) (mother's name)+'ite
Example: Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

So the son has the father's name + son while the daughter has the mother's name + daughter

How the family (lineage) name works is a bit guesswork since there are no conclusive examples in the movie or script.
It is either the father's or the mother's. Here we would need to know if Na'vi families are patriarchic or matriarchic
Based on the names from the scriptment I'd say the Omatikaya have rather a patriarchic family structure, so the children will most likely get the fathers family name.
But the movie shows that there are also female clan leaders (Ikran people). This may or may not be an indicator that there are also matriarchic clans. We don't know if this varies from clan to clan or if all clans can have a male or female eyktan. 

There are some obvious camronian influences at work here.

Male:
(name) te (family) (father's name)+'itan
Example: Tsu'tey "te Rongloa" Ateyo'itan
Old Cameronian Name: Tsu te Rongloa -> "Eats the heart" Camronian meaning; which if we were to listen to the phonetics... the word "Txe'lan/te'lan" (heart) may be sourced back to "te Rong" because of inaccurate aural transcription from "Rongloa" which was probably originally heart in the Camronian vocabulary.  The accurate converting of the old names into modern Frommerian script would be helpful in understanding what is going on with these names a bit more clearly.

-> He is indicated as the "alpha male" or diminant male under the matriarch and patriarch.

Female:
(name) te (family) (mother's name)+'ite
Example: Neytiri "te Tskaha" Mo'at'ite
Old Cameronian Name: Zuleika te kaha polenoma

Neytiri's sister as listed in the iPhone game. Sylwanin Dis'Kahan Mo'at A'itey
Probably now should be: Sìlwanìn te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

Eytukan (Patriarch) in the scriptment was originally: Mato'a Te Kaha Nahgoitewa
Probably should be: Eytukan te Tskaha Nahgo'itan(Nangoitewa'itan)

Mo'at in the scriptment was originally: Mo'at pohatsua
Probably should be: Mo'at te Tskaha Pohatsua'ite

N'deh is their guide in the scriptment, and is apparently Grace's lover.  His full name is not revealed.
TRI COOCHYESTEWA is another hunter with Tsu'Tey (TSU TE) in the scriptment.
-- itewa or tewa could be contractions of son of or daughter of "ewa"/"Eywa", or just some garble-de-gook Cameron thew into the names to make them sound cool.

[ShadowedSin]

Well, since Uniltaron is just mentioned to be the one that gives you a spirit Animal. I don't see it being one strictly for hunters. (Spirit Animal being totem) and they do have weavers as one of the given vocab means weaver

Perhaps what we need to know strictly is what allows mating, Iknimaya OR Uniltaron.

IT could be a straight line or it could be that for a warrior to get a mate they have to have an Ikran. That would make sense.

What we need is more info so we can make a better hypothesis rather than the narrow band presented in the ASG and the movie.

From a (human) aboriginal perspective, the ability to provide for a family precludes obtaining a spouse. The selection of a (providing) spouse entails examining their ability to provide. Strong hunters, big hunters, skilled hunters; these are all desirable spouses. Clever warriors, clever gatherers, efficient managers and laborers, as well as tireless workers, and above all character are also traits that are admirable. So training in, obtaining, and proving your skills/traits/character shows the tribe (and the tutee) your prowess. The women of the tribe want strong, fearless, efficient providers, and they have their own skills (gathering, weaving, pottery, nurturing, even hunting or of being a warrior) that they display as well.

So from this perspective, I think it would mean that whatever order things go in, the "approval" for mating must be preceded by a display of worth to self, spouse, and tribe. Srak?

Problem is that Na'vi have male and female hunters. Which means they probably do not put that much emphasis on a given gender. But as I noted on another thread, the Na'vi seem to practice a bigman culture (common in Papuan Highland Tribes). Achievement and contribution to the Clan result in status. So perhaps because Tsu'tey was born from a warrior, was a good hunter and fighter (he lead the Iknimaya showing prestige enough to conduct a ritual) means that it would not percieved as unlikely that the chieftain's daughter would choose him.

However, this does not say that males and females are in the same place. I do think seriously that if they're positions were reversed and Jake was female. That we would probably have seen the same thing. And I have to ask, what Kinship system are you referring to? Right now we don't know if the are Iroquois, Eskimo, Hawaiin or Omaha (the basis of Anthropological Kinship systems). So we really can't configure their naming conventions till we know more.

Plus the usage of "te" is dubios because of the fact that Tsu'Tey was changed from Tsu te. So I would say te means nothing.

[Tsu'roen]

Okay your info is again a bit off.

Uniltaron is stated to be when one finds their dream hunt. It has nothing to do with Lineage. And in the movie all they stated that he became a member of the people. The given words you are referring to are the same as someone saying "Aragorn son of Arathorn". There is not outward proof stating that any of the rites of passage have anything to do with names.

And since the book is a lot more extensive on the information (barring illegal words) it is a FULL avatar franchise release. And is full canon. So it is more than likely that Jake had his ceremonies done in the opposite order for some other reason. Also the actual mention of taking a mate for Jake comes after both ceremonies and there is no mention of either in that he had to wait to take a mate after a given one. The ASG covers this again explicitly. It is Iknimaya that decides if you can gain a Mate, Uniltaron allows you to become a hunter.

Quoting my edit.

If I remember correctly Jake's first hunt comes before the Iknimaya. So it is more than possible that the Rites can be done out of order. One specifically deals with the right to be a Hunter, and the other deals with being an Ikran Rider. Jake also is more of a physical kind of guy, it is quite likely he could just shown he was more ready for one than the other. That means that traditionally it is Uniltaron and then Iknimaya. Otherwise again the ASG states Dream hunt then Ikran bonding for full Clan membership.

I never said that Uniltaron has anything to do with lineage or naming.

Also where in the ASG is given in which order Iknimaya and Uniltaron come on the way to becoming a warrior/full member of a Na'vi clan. While I found plenty of mentioning - nothing I found contradicts the order or significance given in the movie.

Jake's "first hunt" was a test of readiness for Iknimaya, supervised by an experienced hunter/warrior (Neytiri).

[Tsu'roen]

The usage of "te" in full names is explicitly mentioned in the dictionary at the end of the ASG and is used in both full names given in the 2007 script. There is nothing dubious about it.

[ShadowedSin]

I would suggest against double posting, edit your post.

What is the meaning of Te then?

The movie showed it in just the opposite order:
1.  Iknimaya to become taronyu  
2.  Uniltaron to be "reborn" as Omatikaya'ite/'itan - a full member of the clan

the suffixes 'ite and 'itan mean son and daughter. What does the second section mean? Is it referring to that one become a son and daughter of the Olo' after completing a certain task?

Also where in the ASG is given in which order Iknimaya and Uniltaron come on the way to becoming a warrior/full member of a Na'vi clan. While I found plenty of mentioning - nothing I found contradicts the order or significance given in the movie.

The section under about the Arachnoid and the stone jar entry inthe ASG give the impression that Uniltaron is a Rite of Passage for young Na'vi. Iknimaya is also mentioned is when a Na'vi can take a mate.

Since Uniltaron is done outside and it is mentioned that young Na'vi generally will carve a jar. It is not hard to draw a conclusion that Uniltaron is generally the first of the two Rites. Iknimaya is secondary because it places emphasis on reproductive right rather than finding a Spirit Animal.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

snip

Cookie!

I actually understood (most of) that! Thanks for clarifying it. But my favorite part was:

The accurate converting of the old names into modern Frommerian script

Interesting tidbit: The Fomorian (no relation?) were the ancient nemeses of the Tuatha Dé Danann, who are (IMHO educated opinion) the closest thing Earth has to Na'vi. Okay, I've had my fun. back to our regularly-scheduled topic.

[Tsu'roen]

What is the meaning of Te then?

ASG page 200: "te   particle used in full names"

The movie showed it in just the opposite order:
1.  Iknimaya to become taronyu 
2.  Uniltaron to be "reborn" as Omatikaya'ite/'itan - a full member of the clan

the suffixes 'ite and 'itan are used in the naming of Neytiri. When you mention this in your secondary assumption you give the impression that it is added to the name after completing Uniltaron.

I remember that after Jake passed the dream hunt Eytukan said during the final part of the ceremony in Na'vi "You are now a son of the Omaticaya. You are part of the People." - Omatikaya'itan" - son of the Omatikaya.

Also where in the ASG is given in which order Iknimaya and Uniltaron come on the way to becoming a warrior/full member of a Na'vi clan. While I found plenty of mentioning - nothing I found contradicts the order or significance given in the movie.

The section under about the Arachnoid and the stone jar entry inthe ASG give the impression that Uniltaron is a Rite of Passage for young Na'vi. Iknimaya is also mentioned is when a Na'vi can take a mate.

Uniltaron is a Rite of Passage for young Na'vi - that was never debated.

"Iknimaya is also mentioned is when a Na'vi can take a mate." on which page? In connection with Iknimaya I could only find mentioned bonding with a banshee but nothing about the right of taking a mate.

Since Uniltaron is done outside and it is mentioned that young Na'vi generally will carve a jar. It is not hard to draw a conclusion that Uniltaron is generally the first of the two Rites. Iknimaya is secondary because it places emphasis on reproductive right rather than finding a Spirit Animal.

I think that conclusion is pretty far fetched - especially since the movie has given us an order in which both tasks are completed.

Also my impression from the script and the movie is that Uniltaron is done in a cave below Hometree  - in the movie you can see Jake coming up from it after the test.

ASG p51: "... kept in a stone jar build specifically for the task. ..."   now I read here that this is a dedicated jar for storing the arachnoid for the ceremony. But it doesn't explicitly say that the young Na'vi will make the jar or that a new jar is made for every ceremony.

[ShadowedSin]

Alright after consulting Pandorapedia - Good source I've revised my info.

There is no inherent order, Jake complete the Iknimaya because he was a warrior. Which means that Iknimaya has nothing to do with becoming a member of the people. It is a rite he undertook to be recognized as a warrior in the eyes of the Na'vi.

Bonding with a banshee is a dangerous and required rite of passage for all would-be Na'vi warriors.

Otherwise he would have just completed the Uniltaron alone and gained the right to carve a bow from a branch from Hometree. The significant placed upon the DreamHunt (agreeing with you now) from the movie. Points to it is the Dream Hunt that is the coming of age ceremony in Na'vi culture.

I do however believe that non-Ikran Clans may not have the Iknimaya and in fact will probably have a similar rite for warriors.

My suggested naming convention is <Personal Name> <Father and Mothers name with corresponding attachments> for a full formal name. Including something like Olo'<Clan Name> and then corresponding marker would also be appropriate.

[Technowraith]

The Iknimaya is the ritual used to bond with the Banshee, the ikran. The way i see it, Uniltaron and Iknimaya are both required before becoming a warrior. In the movie, Jake completes Iknimaya first, then Uniltaron. I'm not sure if the scene where Jake kills the hexapede is considered Uniltaron (The scene where Neytiri tells Jake he is ready). I don't think so. In Avatar, i don't think we even see the Uniltaron (Dream Hunt). We see the ceremony where Eytukan accepts Jake as one of the Peoplem which means Jake obviously completed the Uniltaron and Iknimaya.

[ShadowedSin]

Well, Techno my thesis is that Uniltaron is the Na'vi act of the age old Rite of Passage. Remember after supposedly undergoing it Jake can take a mate. To me the dreamhunt is how they mark someone entering into adulthood.

The Iknimaya I think can be completely after or before. It's the mark of the warrior, and I do think that people in the Na'vi society can be considered an adult before they are considered a fighter. I believe Jake went through it first because to the Na'vi he is obviously a fighter. So it would make sense that where as if another Clan member came over they would be seen as a warrior with their Ikran or Pa'li (horse clan reference) so they are warriors. Jake has yet to completely said ritual and since he's a foreigner it makes no sense to bring him in as an adult and then a warrior like a blood member. It would make more sense to gain the warrior recognition which then shows he was (I'm using their distrust of the Dreamwalkers as a basis for this) to then go through the DreamHunt to become a member of the People.

[Technowraith]

Well, Techno my thesis is that Uniltaron is the Na'vi act of the age old Rite of Passage. Remember after supposedly undergoing it Jake can take a mate. To me the dreamhunt is how they mark someone entering into adulthood.

The Iknimaya I think can be completely after or before. It's the mark of the warrior, and I do think that people in the Na'vi society can be considered an adult before they are considered a fighter. I believe Jake went through it first because to the Na'vi he is obviously a fighter. So it would make sense that where as if another Clan member came over they would be seen as a warrior with their Ikran or Pa'li (horse clan reference) so they are warriors. Jake has yet to completely said ritual and since he's a foreigner it makes no sense to bring him in as an adult and then a warrior like a blood member. It would make more sense to gain the warrior recognition which then shows he was (I'm using their distrust of the Dreamwalkers as a basis for this) to then go through the DreamHunt to become a member of the People.

That makes better sense. I think some confusion (at least on my part) was coming from not seeing the Uniltaron in Avatar, but reading so much about it in the Activist Guide. There are quite a few entries that have references to the Uniltaron. I sat back thinking about where in Avatar the Uniltaron took place, and still (after 21 laps) haven't found a reference to Uniltaron in Avatar (since i haven't become well versed in the verbal aspects of Na'vi yet, i'm not sure if they say the word "Uniltaron" in Na'vi at any point in the movie. I can read and write Na'vi a lot better than i can speak or listen at this point. If anyone hear notices feel free to speak up.)

[ShadowedSin]

Some groups put the warrior training before the right to take a mate. The Massai do this, only an elder can have a wife. So it would not actually be out of the ordinary IF a Na'vi has to be a fighter if that is what they wish before becoming an adult. But then again they don't have a highly martial society, which the Massai had a fear of tribal raids and they don't have fraternal groups that we know of. So I would think that Uniltaron is the usual Rite that everyone goes through. Ikniamaya and its related rituals are separate and related to different life roles and life stages.

[Technowraith]

Before continuing, we should probably make a separate thread for this discussion, because we're derailing this one pretty nicely. 

[ShadowedSin]

Yes I would label it life stages and rites.