Na'vi laws?

Started by Elektrolurch, February 20, 2010, 08:56:55 AM

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Tsu'roen

So they can't fight too much or the lovelife suffers  8) ;D
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

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Elektrolurch

xD ;D

The Na'vi matings and marriages would be an interesting topic to discuss about.
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Tsahík and Olo'ekytan must have separate roles. As of right now we have no way of knowing who has more authority in what area, though. Still, I agree in this case Tsahík could call the shots. We have to consider that she has seniority over Tsu'tey who is brand new to the role. He is still rather unsure of himself. Still, it's clear that he holds a lot of power. Even with the knowledge that Mo'at freed him, Norm doesn't believe he'll be allowed near the tribe with Tsu'tey as leader. Also, when Jake lands, it's Tsu'tey he talks to, not Mo'at.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Elektrolurch

Yep, that's right, but Norm is just a background role, in my eyes.
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Aw, don't sell Norm short. He's the anthropologist of the group so he probably has a very deep understanding of how the culture works. At the very least he probably knows the inner workings of their leadership rules better then Jake.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Elektrolurch

Yep, I just mean that he played a background role in the movie. This would also make sense. Grace knows everything about the life, and Norm knows the Na'vi.
Volt, Watt, Ampere, Ohm, ohne mich gibt's keinen Strom!

Technowraith

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on February 20, 2010, 08:01:40 PM
Quote from: Technowraith on February 20, 2010, 09:04:47 AM
We do have an extensive thread on "maintaining order " and "justice" among the na'vi. It's an older thread, so it probably dropped off the front page by now.

Every culture has some system for maintaining order and law. From what we've seen, the na'vi culture has many unwritten laws and customs. We don't know much about how the na'vi maintain law and order in their culture yet. But i do know this is information we'll probably learn in the future as more about the na'vi culture becomes known.

This brings up a great point. We are almost having flame wars over "necroposting" because interesting topics that were started "long ago" (last month) have run their course and if a new member comes along with an idea and wants to join in on the conversation, suddenly it is grounds for excommunication. So do we forbid NEW conversations? How do we handle this thread? IMHO we simply start a new thread and have a new discussion. Will we be saying a lot of the same thing over? Probably--but who will think to search through all of the hundreds of threads to see if something was posted in the thousands of posts? Idea come and we want to write about them now--not spend all night trying to see if anyone has asked this question 3 months ago.

Na'vi laws? What about LearnNavi laws? See what I did? I am so cleverer!  8)

I hope the Na'vi have more sensible laws regarding conversation! And yes--this is on topic, because I noted the fact that the Na'vi must have some kind of laws regarding old conversations, especially being an oral tradition. They have nothing set in stone (again with the funny puns!) so I guess na'vi laws would have to be memorized in song, early on.

Srak?

Addressing the first point:

What we're running into is that new threads push older threads off the front page. So in a way, people who are looking to post in a similar topic find "one doesn't exist" because it's not seen on the front page. So they start a new thread. Thus we end up with a sitauation we here. Thing is, both threads have extensive discussion, so merging them may or may not work. Necropsoting isn't in and of itself a bad thing. A thread that is months old can still contain current, relavent discussion. It would be almost be better than having 10 threads on the same topic. One thing you're ovbviously trying to avoid is 10 threads on the same topic with 4 posts per thread. In the case of this topic, i would say leave it go in my opinion. The older thread will go the way of old threads, but current discussion will continue here.

As for the whole Na'vi and the roles and rules of society:

Anyone with a basic cultural understanding knows that rules exist in one form or another. We know the na'vi don't have writing. They don't need it. So we're not going to find a "book of laws" laying around. What we need to learn is the deeper understanding of how their culture works. And to do that, you need to live among them, or ask one of the Na'vi to explain their rules to you.

We don't know much about the inheritance of hierarchal positions within the tribe yet. So how the olo'ekytan is replaced is unknown at the time. (At least to me).
See that shadow? It's the last one you're gonna see.

Tsmukan fa kxetse anawm

Kaltxì Palulukan!

#47
Quote from: uniltìyìranyu on February 21, 2010, 04:10:51 AM
If that's true... Why was Mo'at surprised when she saw Toruk coming to them with Jake on his back? Her mind was totally blown away.

Mo'at's job (set of skills+position in society) was that of "interpreter of Eywa." This is my job IRL. Not Eywa of course, but I do know enough to understand the "Dragon Lady." As a tsahik, you don't know everything that will happen, and you don't get free advice on demand from (insert name here). You do get a greater access to information, but think of it like this: If the normal tute gets 2-5% information directly from (insert name here) on a daily basis, you get 25-40%---depending on how good you are AND how much time you spend actively engaged in meditation and communion with (insert name here), research, contemplation, and counsel of others. It is not an easy job by any stretch, and emotions and ego affect your connection, just as they would anyone and everyone else--so that is a difficult person journey you must take that no one can ever see.

IMHO, she cut Jake's bonds because of the "sign from Eywa" at the beginning of their interaction, and her subsequent interpretation (her tasting him and the following actions of his training--much that was unseen in the film). She had "more information to go on" than we were given in the film, but not omniscience. She was relying on Eywa's wisdom/judgment when she cut Jake free. She saw no value in him being tied up at that point. When he rode in as Toruk Makto, this was both shame, amazement, and and an answer to her prayers. I know this one well:

Shame--for doubt--doubt is a tute emotion. a tute condition. It happens to all of is. Mo'at should not have had ANY doubt, but given the circumstance, no one can blame her. Amazement: this is something that happened to her father's grandfather. before that, it had happened only in the stories of the ancients. And now, BY HER HAND it happened. Eywa directly handed her a miracle. That is no small feat. Answer: well, that is self-explanatory.
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsu'roen

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on February 21, 2010, 01:33:14 PM
snip
I think that is a dead on assesment of Mo'at motivation and reactions!

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on February 21, 2010, 12:06:38 PM
Tsahík and Olo'ekytan must have separate roles. As of right now we have no way of knowing who has more authority in what area, though. Still, I agree in this case Tsahík could call the shots. We have to consider that she has seniority over Tsu'tey who is brand new to the role. He is still rather unsure of himself. Still, it's clear that he holds a lot of power. Even with the knowledge that Mo'at freed him, Norm doesn't believe he'll be allowed near the tribe with Tsu'tey as leader. Also, when Jake lands, it's Tsu'tey he talks to, not Mo'at.
I think Grace describes it pretty well:
"He (Eytukan) is the clan leader - but she (Mo'at) is the spiritual leader. Like a shaman."
Now in an environment like Pandora where the spirits of nature are not imaginary but something who's presence can be experienced on a daily basis I would think the word of the shaman would have even more weight than in comparable Earth societies.

Also Jake knew that he didn't have to win over Mo'at as she was at no point ever against him.
But Jake has always been Tsu'tey's rival. So he was the one he had to talk to and convince. And arriving as Toruk Makto was probably the only way to do so without being killed on the spot.

Quote from: uniltìyìranyu on February 21, 2010, 12:09:22 PM
Yep, that's right, but Norm is just a background role, in my eyes.
Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on February 21, 2010, 12:14:55 PM
Aw, don't sell Norm short. He's the anthropologist of the group so he probably has a very deep understanding of how the culture works. At the very least he probably knows the inner workings of their leadership rules better then Jake.
As for Norm's concern:  He didn't know at that point if Jake's Ikran had survived or waited for him nor had he any idea that Jake would try to tame Toruk. So he had to assume Jake had to enter the area of the clan on foot. In that case Jake would have encountered Tsu'tey's warriors first. And those would have most likely killed him first an asked questions later. So Norm's concern was very justified.

As for Norm being just a sidekick  - I'm not sure about that. I expect to see him and Max back in the sequel with possibly larger roles. We also don't know yet for sure if his Avatar was killed or just wounded and recovered for "repair". That is something only the book or the sequel will tell ...
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

About Necroposting: Let's not start anything here. The thread about necroposting where the war is going on only applies to the introduction board. A lot of people didn't read all the way through and assumed it was for the whole board, which caused a lot of confusion. It's just a rule in place so people won't go posting on people's old introduction threads which would push the newer people down. If someone wants to add new information to an old thread here, they should feel free to do so.

Back on topic XD

While we do know the Olo'ekytan is the "clan leader" and the Tsahík is the "spiritual leader" we're not sure what those lines are. There is a lot of leeway room and grey are between these two positions. Though it's probably safe to assume that in these grey areas they work together.

I do hope we see more Norm in the sequel, he'd be a very interesting character to explore.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on February 22, 2010, 12:24:57 AM
While we do know the Olo'ekytan is the "clan leader" and the Tsahík is the "spiritual leader" we're not sure what those lines are. There is a lot of leeway room and grey are between these two positions. Though it's probably safe to assume that in these grey areas they work together.
I do hope we see more Norm in the sequel, he'd be a very interesting character to explore.

With all due respect, the tribal leader's position is pretty cut and dry. He is responsible for the safety and structure of the clan. He organizes hunting parties, dispenses justice when needed, offers and takes counsel, serves as a central figure, settles disputes, and attends to the day-to-day management of the clan/tribe.

The spiritual leader is the counter-balance of/to authority. S/he focuses on the tribe's attunement to the cosmos (here: Eywa), and takes and gives counsel, and attends to th spiritual needs of the tribe. This has been a part of Terran history forever, with "witch doctors" and chiefs, priests/popes/cardinals, and kings/emperors, and other various forms of religion and government working together to hopefully guide the people instead of soaking them for resources and controlling them.

The balance is "balance," and it requires a great chief (wise) to run the clan successfully, knowing never to usurp the tsahik, and knowing when to give way. The tsahik in turn reinforces the role of clan leader through careful interaction with the tribe.

Srak?  :)
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Yes, those  parts are their obvious roles. I'm talking about the areas where these positions overlap (settling disputes being a big one). This is different in every culture, and as of right now we only have a bit of knowledge as to how it works among the Omatikaya. I personally think that Tsahík would have more power in most situation, but we don't know the cultural etiquette of when they're allowed to use this power.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on February 22, 2010, 12:49:46 AM
Yes, those  parts are their obvious roles. I'm talking about the areas where these positions overlap (settling disputes being a big one). This is different in every culture, and as of right now we only have a bit of knowledge as to how it works among the Omatikaya. I personally think that Tsahík would have more power in most situation, but we don't know the cultural etiquette of when they're allowed to use this power.

I know we aren't supposed to post "ditto posts" but pssahik (or whatever). "That was well stated." (and so was mine, while I am at it).
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

ShadowedSin

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on February 22, 2010, 12:41:38 AM
Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on February 22, 2010, 12:24:57 AM
While we do know the Olo'ekytan is the "clan leader" and the Tsahík is the "spiritual leader" we're not sure what those lines are. There is a lot of leeway room and grey are between these two positions. Though it's probably safe to assume that in these grey areas they work together.
I do hope we see more Norm in the sequel, he'd be a very interesting character to explore.

With all due respect, the tribal leader's position is pretty cut and dry. He is responsible for the safety and structure of the clan. He organizes hunting parties, dispenses justice when needed, offers and takes counsel, serves as a central figure, settles disputes, and attends to the day-to-day management of the clan/tribe.

The spiritual leader is the counter-balance of/to authority. S/he focuses on the tribe's attunement to the cosmos (here: Eywa), and takes and gives counsel, and attends to th spiritual needs of the tribe. This has been a part of Terran history forever, with "witch doctors" and chiefs, priests/popes/cardinals, and kings/emperors, and other various forms of religion and government working together to hopefully guide the people instead of soaking them for resources and controlling them.

The balance is "balance," and it requires a great chief (wise) to run the clan successfully, knowing never to usurp the tsahik, and knowing when to give way. The tsahik in turn reinforces the role of clan leader through careful interaction with the tribe.

Srak?  :)

Sorry to say but the Clan leader is not a Chief. The Na'vi are not a chiefdom and from what I've seen they are more akin to a band society than anything else. His position from what I've seen in part does not exactly impart actual Power upon him. His influence is based upon social support via his own history of personal action (Tsu'Tey is an example, he has followers in the Clan) and probably skill.

Does he organize hunting parties?

Yes and no, I would say that is conjecture. The Na'vi if they are a pure band society would have hunters that would gravitate to the more skilled hunters. Meaning that hunting parties form generally and the kill is spread communally throughout the Clan. (the !Kung of the Kalahari do this).

Does me mediate?

Yes, we saw this with Jake, his position does exert a good amount of influence. And most likely from this we can see that the Olo'Eyktan does have the ability to make a decision on disputes. BUT the Tsahik can interfere (your example of religious leaders doing this is a good one).

"Witch Doctors" are not priests, they provide a solution to witches (A supernatural practioner that has inborn abilities, Anthro term.)

The Tsahik because of her position and how it seems there is actual training for it would be a combination of shaman (spiritual communer) and high priest. Her part is to provide a connection to Eywa and commune with her, she is the shaman in that respect. Her priestly duties exist because the position in itself has a formal training aspect for it (she had acoltyes or assistants, Neytiri people have hinted might have been roomed for the position.

I would say day to day management is not exactly the best way to describe it. From what I've seen the Na'vi refer to different individuals in their respective fields for things (Tsu'tey is top warrior, so he is the one that leads in war). This is proven by the main fighter presiding over the Iknimaya, a ceremony solely attached to the Ikran riding Tsamsiyu.

This society most likely is like the bigman concepts of New Guinea. You have certain individuals that have support via achievement and their contribution to their followers. These followers give them political clout and allow them to have certain abilities. Like organize a hunting party. So from what I've seen so far, there is little proof that the Clan Leader is an ultimate power in the Clan, I think his power in itself is based upon the support of followers and the Clan itself. Meaning that if he want's to do something he has to provide some kind of payment for it.
\Shadow's Sin
A Blog discussion Amazon and notes for the Arrow Child Novella!

Arrow Child
An Online Serial Novel and the first story in the Amazon Diaspora Saga.

Kaltxì Palulukan!

#54
"Ditto!"

But also remember how Olo'eyktan told Tsu'tey to lead the attack with the ikran. The tribe/clan (whatever) needs a central figure. Not an overlord--that is so Imperialstic anyway, but a central figure (or pair) nonetheless. Please pardon me if my terminology is not 100% Harvard approved. but I think we are both saying the same basic thing. I like your explanation, as it sounds so much more intricate.

:)
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

ShadowedSin

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on February 22, 2010, 01:10:12 PM
"Ditto!"

But also remember how Olo'eyktan told Tsu'tey to lead the attack with the ikran. The tribe/clan (whatever) needs a central figure. Not an overlord--that is so Imperialstic anyway, but a central figure (or pair) nonetheless. Please pardon me if my terminology is not 100% Harvard approved. but I think we are both saying the same basic thing. I like your explanation, as it sounds so much more intricate.

:)

Which still plays into my big man analysis, also he is the older. Olo'Eyktan either lead (if they can or if they have the skill) or will ask the top warrior to do so.Note that it wasn't an order, but more of a "Lead our people" in the sense of. "I know you got game! Go kick their ass for us all!"
\Shadow's Sin
A Blog discussion Amazon and notes for the Arrow Child Novella!

Arrow Child
An Online Serial Novel and the first story in the Amazon Diaspora Saga.

Kaltxì Palulukan!

#56
Quote from: ShadowedSin on February 22, 2010, 07:04:32 PM
Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on February 22, 2010, 01:10:12 PM
"Ditto!"

But also remember how Olo'eyktan told Tsu'tey to lead the attack with the ikran. The tribe/clan (whatever) needs a central figure. Not an overlord--that is so Imperialstic anyway, but a central figure (or pair) nonetheless. Please pardon me if my terminology is not 100% Harvard approved. but I think we are both saying the same basic thing. I like your explanation, as it sounds so much more intricate.

:)

Which still plays into my big man analysis, also he is the older. Olo'Eyktan either lead (if they can or if they have the skill) or will ask the top warrior to do so.Note that it wasn't an order, but more of a "Lead our people" in the sense of. "I know you got game! Go kick their ass for us all!"

Your post indicates that we are arguing. I was not aware that we were in disagreement. --- Are we? I was under the impression that we were all (ayoe) adding different parts to a discussion. I see nothing here that is incorrect. only general discussion. Am I wrong on this?

P.S. i just saw the movie again. It certainly did not look like a "request." And Tsu'tey seemed eager to comply. This leads me to believe in a tight working relationship--Master and apprentice (which is obviously different from Terran "master and servant"). Students don't teach themselves nearly as much as a wise master.
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

ShadowedSin

Oh sorry if I was getting a bit argumentative there.

And the comply statement would fit with a combination of bigman/chief. The Clan Leader position gives a lot of respect. It would make sense that the Na'vi would be happy to do something for a man that probably did great things for the Clan in the past.

Now if only we had more info on the history of the Omatikaya.

I can say that both the Tsahik and Olo'Eyktan probably do have a lot of power, but I doubt it is either absolute. Or totally based upon their position.
\Shadow's Sin
A Blog discussion Amazon and notes for the Arrow Child Novella!

Arrow Child
An Online Serial Novel and the first story in the Amazon Diaspora Saga.

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: ShadowedSin on February 23, 2010, 03:43:42 PM
Oh sorry if I was getting a bit argumentative there.

And the comply statement would fit with a combination of bigman/chief. The Clan Leader position gives a lot of respect. It would make sense that the Na'vi would be happy to do something for a man that probably did great things for the Clan in the past.

Now if only we had more info on the history of the Omatikaya.

I can say that both the Tsahik and Olo'Eyktan probably do have a lot of power, but I doubt it is either absolute. Or totally based upon their position.

You see, I am speaking in generalities here. I realize that to a professor or avid student of aboriginal tribes, i probably sound like someone who speaks "with a bad accent." I am trying not to get too complicated for the casual reader, but also, I don't have meticulous study of the difference between say, Mayans, Incas, Cherokee, Sioux, or African and Polynesian tribes. So i don;t ant to come across as speaking absolutes, but more generally to explain tribal/clan life versus what most of the people here experience daily (bosses, mayors, police, parking tickets, etc). So I apologize if I over-simply, or even miss a point here or there, but my goal is that we all arrive in a place of understanding of the Na'vi philosophy "in contrast to" general human (modern and post-modern) psyches.

Anyway--you made me wonder today about that Eastern Sea Clan leader. She seems to be very much in charge (or just wildly popular :) ) in her tribe. I wonder how her "leadership" differs from whatever the old guy's name was, or even the horse clans. I know that terrain and tribe specialty (e.g. Omatikyan=weavers, versus some other tribes renown for pottery) adds nuances to tribal life and thus possibly structure and organization.

Bah! This is too much thinking for me! I am going to go watch cartoons!

2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsu'roen

There are several cultures here on Earth where the woman are dominant. If we assume that different Na'vi clans have different traditions or even cultures it is only plausible that there are clans where the females are dominant.
Actually, given that Eywa - the "Great Mother" of the Na'vi - is not just some obscure deity but something that has real physical impact on their daily life I could imagine that the matriarchate is quiet common among the Na'vi clans.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)