Question about Toruk

Started by Tsyeymzi, January 01, 2010, 09:56:20 AM

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Eywa sìltsan

I wouldn't say that Toruk is only allowed to bind a single time in it's life. It's not really an Ikran. It's a toruk. Just because they look kinda similar doesn't mean they're of the same species. In the end Jake says that Toruk Makto was no longer needed and you see the Leonopterix Rex (gotta love human naming) fly of into the descending sun.

Remember the Pa'lì. They're less 'loyal' if I may put it like this.

Actually I think Jake just outsmarted that giant bird. Human history is full of magicians and demons with incredible powers. Today we know that they were usually science folks. I guess the songs about the people who were chosen by Toruk Makto were just songs about people, so desperate because of there situation, that they made the mad attempt to attack Toruk.

If you look closely you see Jake jumping off his Ikran with his (I just call it a...) braid already in his hand. I don't think Toruk had much of a chance against him. It was probably like IMPACT-BAM-Tsahaylu. I guess it's more a battle of minds. Once there minds join and Tsahaylu is in effect one can probably convince Toruk. If the situation isn't dire enough you're dead meat. If your cause is justified by Eywa, the mighty Toruk will join you. Just a theory though.

I still don't believe that Toruk and Ikrans are the same species. I think they got the same ancestors but it would be like comparing condors with sparrows.
"...I pray in my heart that this dream never ends..."

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tìng Eywatikìte'e on January 23, 2010, 02:50:18 AM
That is one of the most singularly hilarious and horrifying posts I have ever read. Mixed feelings of laughter and weeping  :-\

Why thank you :)

I was just trying to figure out a way to work in a sneaky tiger reference without actually using the word "tiger," all while talking about Toruk. It was a long way to go, but I did manage to inject some social commentary there too ;)
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
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Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Quote from: Eywa sìltsan on January 23, 2010, 04:29:41 AM
I wouldn't say that Toruk is only allowed to bind a single time in it's life. It's not really an Ikran. It's a toruk. Just because they look kinda similar doesn't mean they're of the same species. In the end Jake says that Toruk Makto was no longer needed and you see the Leonopterix Rex (gotta love human naming) fly of into the descending sun.

Remember the Pa'lì. They're less 'loyal' if I may put it like this.

Actually I think Jake just outsmarted that giant bird. Human history is full of magicians and demons with incredible powers. Today we know that they were usually science folks. I guess the songs about the people who were chosen by Toruk Makto were just songs about people, so desperate because of there situation, that they made the mad attempt to attack Toruk.

If you look closely you see Jake jumping off his Ikran with his (I just call it a...) braid already in his hand. I don't think Toruk had much of a chance against him. It was probably like IMPACT-BAM-Tsahaylu. I guess it's more a battle of minds. Once there minds join and Tsahaylu is in effect one can probably convince Toruk. If the situation isn't dire enough you're dead meat. If your cause is justified by Eywa, the mighty Toruk will join you. Just a theory though.

I still don't believe that Toruk and Ikrans are the same species. I think they got the same ancestors but it would be like comparing condors with sparrows.

We know that they are not the same species, but they are certainly more related than a Pa'li. It appeared in the film that the more complex creatures bonded only once. I think an animal like Toruk would find it insulting to have more than one rider.

As far as Jake tricking him we won't know until we know more about Tsuhaylu and if there are serious consequences for forced bonding. If you read the earlier parts of this thread we discuss why we believe Jake was "choosen" by Toruk. 
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

Another theory could be that the ikran are more "loyal" than the pa'li because they might be more intelligent, they might be able to form bonds with their riders (not the tsaheylu kind) just like how a dog would protect its owner.

We can never really be sure about the toruk until someone else tries to ride the same one other than Jake.
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Tìng Eywatikìte'e

True as always. We can speculate all we want, but we won't know until it's confirmed. I just assume that Toruk is going to be rather similar to Ikran in a number of manners since the bonding did seem similar.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Eywa sìltsan

I saw the theory of Jake being Toruk's chosen rider but I can't support it. I simply know to little of how the tsahaylu works. It just doesn't seem right that it was such a big timeframe between the attack on jake and there first tsahaylu. I still here Neytiri saying "The first flight will confirm the bond, you mustn't wait" and see here almost pushing Jake and his Ikran down the cliff. So if they're remotely related it should be a rather short ceremony instead of a multiple days timeframe.

I agree though. I summerize that we can't clearly answer this question with the provided knowledge. Too many facts are unclear here.

We would have to clearify if Toruk and the Ikran are related and we need more detail on the function of tsahaylu.
"...I pray in my heart that this dream never ends..."

Technowraith

Quote from: Eywa sìltsan on January 23, 2010, 03:05:30 PM
I saw the theory of Jake being Toruk's chosen rider but I can't support it. I simply know to little of how the tsahaylu works. It just doesn't seem right that it was such a big timeframe between the attack on jake and there first tsahaylu. I still here Neytiri saying "The first flight will confirm the bond, you mustn't wait" and see here almost pushing Jake and his Ikran down the cliff. So if they're remotely related it should be a rather short ceremony instead of a multiple days timeframe.

I agree though. I summerize that we can't clearly answer this question with the provided knowledge. Too many facts are unclear here.

We would have to clearify if Toruk and the Ikran are related and we need more detail on the function of tsahaylu.

The Activist Guide mentions some sort of possible relation between the ikran and Toruk. Essentially Toruk really is just a huge ikran, but that's where the similarities end. We're not sure how the mechanics behind the Toruk Makto work, let alone the whole workings of tsahaylu. I'm thinking that if the lifetime tsahaylu bond works the same for Toruk as it does for the ikran, then in the five (now six with Jake) instances of Toruk makto, it's entirely possible that six different Toruks were used. After all, the story of Toruk makto is known throughout the whole of the Na'vi people of Pandora. So who's to say that the six Toruk Makto's came from the same area?
See that shadow? It's the last one you're gonna see.

Tsmukan fa kxetse anawm

Eywa sìltsan

Remember the singing trees. If only one Toruk Makto died the story is stored somewhere within Eywa and the other Na'Vi no matter where can listen to it. It makes a localisation of the Toruk Maktos impossible in my opinion. Though it's perfectly possible that they were different. From all I know from biology there don't even have to be only ONE Toruk. Except it's some special mutation that maybe one out of a million Ikrans get. Like a blessing from Eywa for a specific task. This would mean that Toruk, in fact, is just a large Ikran. It's all theory after all.
"...I pray in my heart that this dream never ends..."

Technowraith

Quote from: Eywa sìltsan on January 24, 2010, 03:10:05 AM
Remember the singing trees. If only one Toruk Makto died the story is stored somewhere within Eywa and the other Na'Vi no matter where can listen to it. It makes a localisation of the Toruk Maktos impossible in my opinion. Though it's perfectly possible that they were different. From all I know from biology there don't even have to be only ONE Toruk. Except it's some special mutation that maybe one out of a million Ikrans get. Like a blessing from Eywa for a specific task. This would mean that Toruk, in fact, is just a large Ikran. It's all theory after all.

Agreed. This is something that we will hopefully learn more of in upcoming sequels.
See that shadow? It's the last one you're gonna see.

Tsmukan fa kxetse anawm

kintìomum

Quote from: Eywa sìltsan on January 24, 2010, 03:10:05 AM
Remember the singing trees. If only one Toruk Makto died the story is stored somewhere within Eywa and the other Na'Vi no matter where can listen to it. It makes a localisation of the Toruk Maktos impossible in my opinion. Though it's perfectly possible that they were different.
Good point! As the videologs show there's a time of 11 days between Jakes previous-to-last and last log (correct me if I'm wrong) and in this time he was able to gather about 2000 warriors from 15 different clans. The ASG states that there are some hundred clans, which leaves a whole lot of Pandora uncovered for the rallying (or maybe they just didn't arrive in time).

Quote from: Eywa sìltsan
From all I know from biology there don't even have to be only ONE Toruk. Except it's some special mutation that maybe one out of a million Ikrans get. Like a blessing from Eywa for a specific task. This would mean that Toruk, in fact, is just a large Ikran. It's all theory after all.
And once more the ASG, it contains a story about two Toruks fighting for territory (and ending as nantang-food since none wanted to draw back) so there obviously is a whole species of these flying monsters.
And with a territory of about 300km² and meeting only for mating  (ASG again) it surely is a rare sight to see more than one. They have to be widespread because they need a lot of ikran and ikranya so they don't starve.

As for Toruk hunting:
The dive-down-method has to be somewhat effective. Toruk didn't seem that skinny...
Err, well, for an aerial predator I think dive-attacks are the best way to get the food.
The prey has to watch constantly the whole surrounding air/area while the predator can concentrate on watching down. Another benefit of dive attacks is the added speed. And in every air battle (no matter if giant flying creatures, hawks hunting sparrows or jetfighters hunting each other) speed equals victory. The faster the predator the less time for the prey to react and evade.
I guess that without Jake and Neytiri riding the ikrans and noticing the shadow that would have been another snack...
But so: fast food... if it's fast no food... :D
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ShadowedSin

Toruk Makto is not unlike the Gur-Kkan of the Mongol People. Prestige through skill and achievement does seem to be a concept held quite highly in Na'vi society. Anyone bonding with such a creature would and does demand a lot of social power and influence.
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Technowraith

Quote from: kintìomum on January 26, 2010, 04:11:51 AM
Good point! As the videologs show there's a time of 11 days between Jakes previous-to-last and last log (correct me if I'm wrong) and in this time he was able to gather about 2000 warriors from 15 different clans. The ASG states that there are some hundred clans, which leaves a whole lot of Pandora uncovered for the rallying (or maybe they just didn't arrive in time).

Quaritch's briefing right before the Battle at the Tree of Souls mentioned that "In a week's time, there could be 20,000." Which would hold true to the "not getting there on time theory." RDA attacked pre-emptively, not giving time for more warriors to show up. Which has me thinking that the 2000 warriors that were there represented 15 clans. From there, word may have spread. But obviously not everyone arrived in time.
See that shadow? It's the last one you're gonna see.

Tsmukan fa kxetse anawm

Eywa sìltsan

Quote from: Technowraith on January 26, 2010, 04:43:59 AM
Quote from: kintìomum on January 26, 2010, 04:11:51 AM
Good point! As the videologs show there's a time of 11 days between Jakes previous-to-last and last log (correct me if I'm wrong) and in this time he was able to gather about 2000 warriors from 15 different clans. The ASG states that there are some hundred clans, which leaves a whole lot of Pandora uncovered for the rallying (or maybe they just didn't arrive in time).

Quaritch's briefing right before the Battle at the Tree of Souls mentioned that "In a week's time, there could be 20,000." Which would hold true to the "not getting there on time theory." RDA attacked pre-emptively, not giving time for more warriors to show up. Which has me thinking that the 2000 warriors that were there represented 15 clans. From there, word may have spread. But obviously not everyone arrived in time.

I was about to post that aswell. I'd like to remind of the singing trees again. The ressistance against the RDA and the bravery of a few scientists will probably not go unnoticed. No matter if the RDA is coming back in Avatar 2, the Na'Vi will now know what they want and won't go easy on them. Mark Quarritch's words. He said that they would just flood Hell's Gate with 20.000 Na'Vi. Technological advantage would be no excuse anymore. I think the dedication the Na'Vi show is the stronges weapon. No payed RDA-Merc will ever achieve the combat spirit as a Na'Vi tsamsiyu fighting for Eywa and his home.

Also for the very first time since the first songs, Eywa stood up against an enemy. That's a significant event that will change Na'Vi culture on all of Pandora. I think if the RDA should ever return the Na'Vi will probably know how to dismantle armored vehicles and attack rotocrafts. We can see in the first aerial fight that the attack is unorganized. Except for Tsu'tey and Neytiri who seem to know exactly what they do, they jump a single scorpion with like 3 Ikrans to pull it down instead of taking out some weakpoint or something. The following warriors will learn from that fight, I'm sure.

Toruk might not be needed anymore then. I think we will see the rise of Warheroes in combination with the Toruk Legend. Toruk Makto will not be only a Na'Vi who's riding a Toruk but will be a legend like Dragonriders to us. A shining Paragon of justice, honor and strength. Not only a brave warrior who can unite the clans. Though I think to a certain degree Toruk Makto is already such a Legend. ;)
"...I pray in my heart that this dream never ends..."

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Quote from: ShadowedSin on January 26, 2010, 04:30:51 AM
Toruk Makto is not unlike the Gur-Kkan of the Mongol People. Prestige through skill and achievement does seem to be a concept held quite highly in Na'vi society. Anyone bonding with such a creature would and does demand a lot of social power and influence.

Agreed

And well said Technowraith. The Na'vi shall learn from this battle and the RDA will find it a lot harder to take them down even with a large force. Jake knew to take down it's weak points with explosives, which is a huge reason why they won. Now they'll know how to attack in the most efficient manner against them.

Toruk still will probably be needed though. It's probably the biggest moral boost the Na'vi can get, and something like that is often times the deciding factor in an underdog battle.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


ShadowedSin

The Na'vi might for a confederacy, aka a loosely organized alliance between the Clans. With Toruk as a unifying force behind the next possible invasion.
\Shadow's Sin
A Blog discussion Amazon and notes for the Arrow Child Novella!

Arrow Child
An Online Serial Novel and the first story in the Amazon Diaspora Saga.

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

This would make sense. At the very least I think we'll see a greater amount of communication happening between the tribes and plans put in place for when the RDA return.

As Toruk Makto Jake will probably act as an ambassador between the tribes and make sure that this process goes smoothly.
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


kintìomum

#136
Returning humans will have a hell of a time.
First of all: No Hell's Gate complex.
As impressive as it seems, it's only standing because humans in it are constantly battling the regrowing flora around with flamers and toxins.
Now that the humans are gone and almost a year before the next ship arrives (5y 9m 22d per trip x2 = 11y 7m 14d for one whole trip without stop for refueling/loading, divided by 10 ISVs built so far = roughly 1.2 years) there won't be too much left. Sure it can be rebuilt but they'll have to open a landing space in the first place, then set up new generators and air filtering systems and so on...

The heavy (war)machines were built on Pandora, in Hell's Gates robotic factory (it's cheaper to transport blueprints than actual equipment). The only thing a Valkyrie can carry in a number that's making any difference is a set of AMP suits with some infantry.
I can't imagine that Jake will leave the complex operational and most of the Avatars that were allowed to stay were scientists, the guys who should at least have some knowledge on how to sabotage equipment...

Second point:
Even if humans are able to reconquer Hell's Gate or set up another base somewhere else they still have the problem that the Na'vi learned how to fight the gunships, their most effective weapon. And you don't need explosives to ruin a turbine or rotor. A shovel of gravel or a rock will have the same result.

Third point:
And this being the most important one: The distance.
It takes almost six YEARS for a ship to arrive that's been refitted/equipped to set up a base on a hostile world. That's pretty much the same as colonization of the northern americans. Now, sending only one ship is -due to the limited cargo space- pretty useless. Either your troops need all supplies for a one-year tour or they have to carry a basic factory and workers/engineers to operate it (even a robo-factory needs someone to set it up and "push the start button"). Both further limits the space avaiable for actual fighting staff.
So, the only solution is to increase the cargo space.
With 5 ships heading home (the Venture Star being the last in the line), 1 at anchor being refitted/refueled and 4 heading towards Pandora you got another problem: Call the outbound ships back? Let them go and try their luck?
Now, the ships coming back will have to be refitted. Can you afford to leave them at anchor to mass up enough forces to set up a new base?
Again: These ships are EXPENSIVE! And a ship that's not traveling to get it's cargo hold filled with Unobtanium is like pouring dimes into Grand Canyon: nice sight but no profit.
Even if you decide -and convince the 263 million RDA-shareholders its a great idea- to leave your ships waiting until you can send more at once: Your troops will not only be far away from home with long supply lines. 6 years travel time equals no supply lines in actual combat.
Oh, and don't start with nuking the planet and mining on the scrapheap: the RDA is by international decree not allowed to have any mass effect weapons above orbit (pretty interesting, they can nuke competition on Earth?).

The sole reason the RDA was at Pandora is Unobtanium. As long as the natives were peaceful or easily supressed everything was fine. But when you have to wage war to get your mining done the whole thing gets less profitable...
In the end it depends on how desperate the RDA is for Unobtanium. Desperate enough to start an interstellar war? Or will they settle for mining other "nearby" star systems?

Edit: Damn, my longest post so far and totally off-topic...
kintìomum : curiosity (lit.: need knowledge)

"You don't dream in cryo" they say. Good! Imagine a 6-year-nightmare!

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Eywa sìltsan

This is really an interesting topic. We should start a new thread for it to not get too far away from Toruk!
"...I pray in my heart that this dream never ends..."

Kaltxì Palulukan!

#138
Quote from: kintìomum on January 27, 2010, 03:44:54 AM
snip.

This (and pictures of William Shatner (the shat) may be my favorite post ever. Very well thought out. Extremely well written. The only thing I can say in response is that "THIS is why we have the Activist's Guide. Without that mutt of a book, discussion like this would not be possible.

+1!!

Okay, so just to get this train back on track: Toruk. Male or female? How can you tell?
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

kintìomum

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on January 27, 2010, 10:34:01 AM
This (and pictures of William Shatner (the shat) may be my favorite post ever. Very well thought out. Extremely well written. The only thing I can say in response is that "THIS is why we have the Activist's Guide. Without that mutt of a book, discussion like this would not be possible.
Well, thank you. That was something I had on my mind after the first viewing... But that was before the ASG and the little hint that there are 10 ISVs...

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan!
Okay, so just to get this train back on track: Toruk. Male or female? How can you tell?
Err... dang... I don't know.
We can't even know which gender ikrans have, since we pretty much know nothing about them except the fact that they breed like swallows in nests that are "glued" to some surface.
Hmm...
Toruks are said to be extremely territorial, no?
So, what if it just needs two of them and they are able to change their gender as certain south american frogs (yeah, viewing Jurassic Park left a mark)?
That would make it somewhat easier when they feel the need to mate. Otherwise it might be that there's a single one ready to mate and surrounded by the same sex... That would result in nantang-food, as mentioned earlier, and be a terrible waste of ressources by Mother Eywa.
kintìomum : curiosity (lit.: need knowledge)

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