Religions?

[Rolyu]

A note to Pantheism; many members of my religion seem to "fear" Avatar in a way because it "promotes Pantheism."  I find it unfortunate, cause way back in Bible School we were told that God is in all living things and all things good.  We later learned that Jesus exists within every single person born in this world.  It seems to echo Pan in a way.  All living things are connected into one great symbiosis, with all of us being a part of the same spirit.  God, Eywa, or Gaia (I spell right?), whatever anyone wants to call it, you can't deny that humans, animals, plants, and the forces of the Earth herself are all intertwined.  Or are supposed to be.
I feel that when a person casts aside their connection with the Earth, their dependence on it and responsibility to keep it safe, they cast aside a part of what God is.

That being the case, I see Eywa as the god/godess of the Na'vi.  If Pandora really existed, and Eywa really in Pandora, I would probably just consider it a different manifestation of the same great force that shaped the universe... whatever you want to call it.  The name isn't all that important.  It's like when Aslan tells the young follower of Tash that everything good he does in the name of Tash is really a deed for Aslan, and though one may do vile things in the name of Aslan, they are followers of Tash.  It's not WHO you follow, but what good you do while you're at it.

I think the same thing can be applied to people who don't believe in God.

Ooh.  Don't let my mom hear me say that...  XD

Does any of this post make sense?

Yay Eywa!

[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

It makes sense to me!

[Ash]

[...]All living things are connected into one great symbiosis, with all of us being a part of the same spirit.  God, Eywa, or Gaia (I spell right?), whatever anyone wants to call it, you can't deny that humans, animals, plants, and the forces of the Earth herself are all intertwined.  Or are supposed to be.
I feel that when a person casts aside their connection with the Earth, their dependence on it and responsibility to keep it safe, they cast aside a part of what God is.

That being the case, I see Eywa as the god/godess of the Na'vi.  If Pandora really existed, and Eywa really in Pandora, I would probably just consider it a different manifestation of the same great force that shaped the universe... whatever you want to call it.  The name isn't all that important.  [...]

Karma for this. I think this respectful attitude would do a lot of people a lot of good 

[Rolyu]

To me it seems less "liberal" and more "common sense" but I could crazy.    I wish I could have a direct neural uplink with Jesus.  That would be freaking bomb.  Oh! That reminds me!
Here's a funny story for you about Jesus, take it with a grain of salt if you don't believe, I'm telling you this for the humor, not to make you believe:

I know this amazingly wonderful guy who is studying to be a priest currently.  We went to different schools, but met up every now and that at Youth Conferences that our youth groups attended. Junior year, he went to the week long intensive (and I mean praying and meditating and worship every day for most of the day) precursor to "Steubenville NW" (The biggest and coolest conference we attend) called LEAD.  When he came back, he had an amazing story where they spent and entire day praying for the Holy Spirit to Manifest in themselves.  They each prayed for a different thing.  One friend of mine who went asked to speak in tongues.  Another friend didn't tell us what she asked for, but also didn't seem disappointed when it didn't happen.  My friend Killian, however, asked for Joy.  He got a little more than he asked for when, as his story goes, he fell into a trance, saw Jesus, and when Jesus asked him what he wanted, he asked to be tickled.  Apparently, Jesus doesn't have to touch you to tickle you, he can just put the feeling of laughter right inside of you.  Anyway, he ended up having to be escorted out of the church cause he was rolling around on the floor laughing and freaking everyone out.  He laughed all day.  When we all met up for Steubenville, he was still kind of giggly.  The best part, however, was during Adoration, where the "body of christ", in the form of unleavened bread, is set in a gold Monstrance, and we kneel down and adore it for a couple hours.  (Yeah yeah I know... 0.o)  Anyway, its supposed to be a very serious and sombre time.  But good old Killian, he sees the Monstrance, and he starts laughing uncontrollably.  A few of us were giggling too, cause his joy was contagious... and it was kind of funny how pissed off the old priests got.  They thought we were being disrespectful.
Killian still laughs in church sometimes. 

I can add a moral onto that!  I think... let's see....
I learned a lesson from that.  The over-seriousness with which people hold there religion can be a bad thing.  A little joy and laughter never hurt anyone.

But that's what I love about Eywa.  The Na'vi are not afraid of Eywa.  Nor do they feel bad about themselves all the time because they're not perfect.  They don't hurt others in the name of Eywa.  Eywa makes them so happy, and at peace.  They take joy in knowing that a great force is guiding their lives.

Question!
I read in another thread something about Quaritch.  If he dies on Pandora, does he go to Eywa like Grace did, or does something else happen?  What does Eywa do with an evil soul, or extremely misguided?  Does Eywa judge as a "God" or does Eywa lovingly embrace all of life's energy that comes into her arms.

I know we don't know for sure... but what are your thoughts on that?

[Ash]

To me it seems less "liberal" and more "common sense" but I could crazy.

Maybe in this case common sense just does include more liberal and less restricting?

read in another thread something about Quaritch.  If he dies on Pandora, does he go to Eywa like Grace did, or does something else happen?  What does Eywa do with an evil soul, or extremely misguided?  Does Eywa judge as a "God" or does Eywa lovingly embrace all of life's energy that comes into her arms.

I know we don't know for sure... but what are your thoughts on that?

In a technical sense I would say that I don't know if a human being would not have to have a direct connection as Grace had when she died. Like, if Eywa would "recognize" their energy to be something to absorb or not without it.
But as this is more about "what would happen to the soul if" - I can not really argue this, but Eywa does not strike me as being judgemental (maybe because Neytiri said something of Eywa only balancing, not taking sides. Sending in the animals then could be some kind of self-preservation) in any way. Also I do not know if the souls that go to Eywa stay the same, or of they are transformed in the process, given a broader outlook/knowledge into everything and certain aspects that made them do evil things just fall away?

And thanks for the story 

[Rolyu]

Your welcome?
It might not be as funny if you're not Catholic, but I love seeing old priests get grumpy when my friend (who I believe is very holy, and very wise beyond his years) does something they don't like.  He's kind of... beyond people and their expectations, in a way.

I would like to think that Eywa grabbed up Quaritch's troubled spirit, soothed whatever fears and hurts the human world had scarred him with, and then put him into the great chain of memories.
So romantic... 

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

To me it seems less "liberal" and more "common sense" but I could crazy.    I wish I could have a direct neural uplink with Jesus.  That would be freaking bomb.  Oh! That reminds me!
I know we don't know for sure... but what are your thoughts on that?

(Jesus was a liberal hon )

[Rolyu]

lolz. 

[ShadowedSin]

To add something:

God in the Christian Faith is often described as an all powerful being, and we are told growing up that god is everyone and everywhere. By defintion god does not have a name NOR a gender. aka the whole

"I am the Alpha and the Omega"

Which in a way if you look at it, is merely a non-dogmatic way of viewing the world in time with the Gaia Spirit idea.

[Rolyu]

Exactly!

[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

Very interesting, indeed.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

I am asking that we tread VERY CAREFULLY here. This is not a religious forum, and even though this is a valid thread, but I am concerned that we will start to offend people of various faiths.

Remember this: Not everyone here believes what you believe, and this is not the place to win converts. In fact, many may not believe at all, and I will NOT have our membership divided by those who believe in (insert name here) versus those who believe in (insert several names here), or believe in (nothing).

Let's keep the discussion centered around Eywa (who is undoubtedly fictional). The more we discuss the intricacies of this or that EARTH-BASED religion, the more we *will* get people upset. Religion is a topic that is considered "impolite" in social discussions, as it starts fights even faster than politics.

So without throwing my alleged weight around, I will ask nicely that we refrain from direct references or detailed explanations of Earth-based faiths, or I will have to start giving lectures on polytheism, paganism, nature worship, alchemy, and whether or not we all think religion is "real." And I would really like to avoid that mess. So, from this point forward, can we pretty please (see? I said "pretty" please ) stick to Eywa before someone who DOES believe in monotheism gets upset that we are discussing polytheism.

And please, do not try to trick me by replying to this, or any other message in this topic by saying "Well I believe in _____." You can express that in PMs to your friends. Let's keep this about the Na'vi people please.

[ShadowedSin]

The concept of Pantheism as people describe is profound in many religions. Not just the Abrahmic faiths, Hinduism does believe in the overwhelming power of the universe.

So it would not seem unlikely that in Na'vi religion that there is a Pantheistic concept of how Eywa works on the planet alone.

[Rolyu]

That is difficult, Kaltxi Palulukan, because without comparing Eywa to corresponding beings on Earth, we seem to have little to talk about.  The problem IS that Eywa is not real. Eywa was created by a human, who lives on Earth, and is influenced by human religions.  It seems to me that the biggest impact Eywa has had is on us, the humans who watch a movie and are moved by the idea.

Though, Hi'irawr, you could probably figure out some way to incorporate Eywa into that post?  This is not a Jesus thread.  I brought him up for anecdotal purposes only.

[Toruk Makto]

A note to Pantheism...

I think the same thing can be applied to people who don't believe in God.

Ooh.  Don't let my mom hear me say that...  XD

Does any of this post make sense?

Yay Eywa!

It made more than sense. It was brilliant.  Irayo!

[Toruk Makto]

"The Na'vi are not afraid of Eywa.  Nor do they feel bad about themselves all the time because they're not perfect.  They don't hurt others in the name of Eywa.  Eywa makes them so happy, and at peace.  They take joy in knowing that a great force is guiding their lives."

Wow again! Well said.

[Toruk Makto]

I am asking that we tread VERY CAREFULLY here. This is not a religious forum, and even though this is a valid thread, but I am concerned that we will start to offend people of various faiths.

Let's keep the discussion centered around Eywa (who is undoubtedly fictional). The more we discuss the intricacies of this or that EARTH-BASED religion, the more we *will* get people upset. Religion is a topic that is considered "impolite" in social discussions, as it starts fights even faster than politics.

Hmmm. Well, IMO, the value of religion is diminished if it can't be spoken of in polite company. With that, I am done with the controversial stuff.

I will have to agree with Rolya that without the common frame of reference provided by comparison to religions on Earth, a discussion of Eywa would be a bit one dimensional.

[Hì'irawr]

Remember this: Not everyone here believes what you believe, and this is not the place to win converts. In fact, many may not believe at all, and I will NOT have our membership divided by those who believe in (insert name here) versus those who believe in (insert several names here), or believe in (nothing).

Let's keep the discussion centered around Eywa (who is undoubtedly fictional). The more we discuss the intricacies of this or that EARTH-BASED religion, the more we *will* get people upset. Religion is a topic that is considered "impolite" in social discussions, as it starts fights even faster than politics.

So without throwing my alleged weight around, I will ask nicely that we refrain from direct references or detailed explanations of Earth-based faiths, or I will have to start giving lectures on polytheism, paganism, nature worship, alchemy, and whether or not we all think religion is "real." And I would really like to avoid that mess. So, from this point forward, can we pretty please (see? I said "pretty" please Smiley ) stick to Eywa before someone who DOES believe in monotheism gets upset that we are discussing polytheism.

Im sorry, : ( I'm not even that religious. I just did a very bad job of making a point and now im embarrassed.

*Cower in fear of Kitty of doom's power*

[ShadowedSin]

Kaltxì Palulukan!'s worries are well founded. We are here to discuss Na'vi culture, not compare religions and debate them. However discussing Na'vi culture with comparison to existing religions (aka comparing the Na'vi to us, and not us to ourselves.) woud be the best idea.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Okay, so if we are going to go down this path--let's do this intelligently. HOWEVER: Don't get offended. I want all believers to know that it is not your Jesus that is being questioned, or doubted, nor your Buddha (not Amida, Sid, or Nicherin), your Gaia, Mohammed, Pan, Demeter, Osirus, Thor, Loki (well no one likes him anyway), nor your Coyote. ALL BELIEVERS (and non-believers) are politely asked to respect that other people may believe in the above named. This is a very sensitive topic; so let's be about it then:

As I understand it, and I may be wrong, even after a lifetime of focus on this particular subject, psychological dualism ("good/evil," right/wrong," God/Devil," Up/down," "Heaven or Nirvana/Hells-or just one Hell in some religions," "left (or sinister)/right (or righteous)," stem from our bilateral symmetry and the constant, equally split (for the most part), and HIGHLY repeatable and reliable cycle of day and night--or "light/dark."

"Man learns by observing the world around him." Or, according to a primitive, but timeless statement: "As above, so below."

Our human philosophies and religions came from our understanding of a "this versus that" style of contrast and comparison. All around us are dualisms that we can explore and reason out, and use as examples to organize the world around us, and justify ourselves and our actions in it. If the "dominant life form" on the planet were based in radial symmetry (e.g. starfish, jellyfish, even an octopus--but to a lesser extent), the global philosophies might perhaps be less simplistic (Us v. Them) "black and white" and more complex, and perhaps "color spectrum" based. Without bilateral symmetry (cut us in half and we are the same on both sides) and the constant reinforcement of dualism (day/night, ground/sky, up/down) we would have developed vastly different views of the world, and thus vastly different heroes, saviors, prophets, and gods.

As to Pandora: See how they can SEE the giant planet in the sky (the ASG has several pictures to reference). It is a constant, looming "world" they know nothing about. It is there and they can see it, along with 13 other moons (some with clouds! Even more with water)--and three suns--unlike Earth. We have developed a global belief that there ARE NO OTHER WORLDS, (except for Buddhism; which goes on, and on, and on, about the countless other worlds of existence, and how impossibly large the universe is--remember, that was written back when people were arguing that the world was flat and that the sun "died" every night, only to b reincarnated in the morning). We are supreme. We are the chosen of the gods (or insert the name of your deity here). This is because we look outward and see a sun and a moon--that is it. We have no giant looming planets filling up our day and night sky. Our sun is DOMINANT. It gives us heat and light, and makes the vacillating (ever-changing) moon seem pale by comparison. The sun is a god in many many Earth religions, and even when it is not specifically deified, the inference of monotheism, or one above all, ties directly back to our sun--with a lesser force (the moon) present to explain imperfections on Earth. This has a thousand different interpretations and there are so many variables that I cannot mention them here. These are simple generalities to compare and contrast to Pandora, who has 13 moons to see, a few planets--one of which is so large that it is more than likely quite intimidating to the primitive mind--and three suns. Additionally, some stars may be more apparent than we get.

When you look at the Pandoran sky--you have a soup, or a stew, clustered with vegetables and meats. Unlike our watered-down porridge of tiny specs and two small objects, Pandora is filled with electrical storms both ON Pandora, connecting Pandora to Polypheus (or whatever that gas bag is labelled), AND also electrical storms between Polywhateverplanet and the other moon(s) and this can be seen from Pandora. If we had anything like that on Earth, we would say "the gods were at war." An active sky (such as the one seen from Pandora) makes an active religion, active philosophies. They can see that there are other worlds and thus do not suffer from the Church's famous demonization of anyone who dared state that either: The earth is NOT flat, or that the Earth is NOT the center of the universe. Simply put: the Na'vi know better. Their religion did not fall apart because "sky people came." On earth, several religions would explode if we were "invaded" by "sky people."

So, in summation, I put forth that we have to take into account the vast differences in Pandoran astronomy and geology to even begin to understand their belief systems. From the beginning, their existence has been a constant interaction with the world around them (what they have labeled as "Eywa"), and their skies have shown them they are NOT alone in the universe, nor are they "the biggest thing in the sky." The absolute worst thing humans could so--and I am certain this will be a HOT topic in either a movie sequel or any number of novels--is to bring (Earth deity) to Pandora and try to make the Na'vi feel as if they are born into sin and therefore need "salvation."

So, there is the can of worms. Anyone seen my can opener around here?