Religions?

Started by Elektrolurch, February 15, 2010, 11:58:18 AM

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Kayrìlien

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on March 01, 2010, 08:38:39 PM

The major difference that I see between the Na'vi and Humans concerning religion is that the Na'vi know Eywa exists. They're not exactly sure what Eywa is, but they are 100% certain that the connection between all life on Pandora is real.

On Earth, we have many different religions, each attempting to explain what human intuition cannot explain. There are a great many devout people in this world, most of which believe that their God (Gods? Goddess? Goddesses?) is real and belongs to some higher state of being than humans. However, we humans do not have this direct connection, this proof that a "supernatural" entity exists. It is all up to faith, and basically, the degree to which people believe in a religion, no matter what it may be, defines them.

Looking at history, Earth's religions have a bit of a bad reputation (understatement, I know...) because of the countless acts of violence and destruction that have been carried out in their name. The problems erupt not with the dogma that defines what a religion is, but when people of different religions interact with each other and attempt to persuade, convert, proselytize, evangelize, or whatever you want to call it.

TL;DR: I don't have a problem with religion. I do have a problem with other people telling me that their religion is the truth and that I am a lesser person than they are because I do not share their beliefs. Because this is basically what Parker Selfridge and the RDA are doing to the Na'vi. They are basically saying "I believe that the economic development of Planet Earth is of supreme importance, and I will do whatever it takes to see that happen. Because you do not share this belief, we will not look at you as equals, and will instead try to either convince you to see our perspective (Grace's school) or remove you from the situation altogether (Quaritch's guns 'n' stuff).

But yeah...like Kaltxì Palulukan said, these are my opinions, nothing more. If you agree, that's cool. If you disagree, that's slightly-less-but-still cool. I really don't want any sort of religious flaming to erupt, because that WILL divide a community with a wound that cannot be healed.

Kayrìlien

Rolyu

Ooh! Good comparison. The RDA I mean.  I love how instead of converting the Na'vi into believing in capitalism, the Na'vi manage to convert several humans on Pandora (and many more on earth it seems!) to believe in Eywa.  Win for them.

Txur’Itan

In simple terms Gaia = Eywa with the key difference being there seems to be a way for the Na'vi to have messages sent back from Eywa to the Na'vi.

This discussion could explode based on the number of ways we could approach comparisons to Earthly concepts.  I think generally, regardless of the religion, many simple analogies will do. 

However, the most compelling comparison based on available facts would be that Eywa is like Gaia or Earth Mother, manifested literally to be Eywa and everything on it her children living as "Eywa'eveng".  The other religions do not appear to equate unless the Na'vi have reason to consider similar reverence to the other Polyphemus moons that they have for their own.  In which case, they might be better compared to the Greek(Roman)/Norse/Egyptian/Hindu or similar pantheons.

私は太った男だ。


Kayrìlien

Quote from: Rolyu on March 02, 2010, 01:04:43 AM
Ooh! Good comparison. The RDA I mean.  I love how instead of converting the Na'vi into believing in capitalism, the Na'vi manage to convert several humans on Pandora (and many more on earth it seems!) to believe in Eywa.  Win for them.


Definitely got a convert here, though I've never been a capitalist. Too much grief.

Kayrìlien


Rolyu

Gosh.  I feel so lame.  My life's dream is to be the owner of the worlds finest internet cafe/ computer repair/ gaming event house franchise.

Capitalism aside, I keep wondering whether or not the Na'vi belief in Eywa extends beyond Pandora.  I know many human religions lack the foresight to see beyond humans and the Earth, but with the Na'vi it seems likely that either there planet is unique, and the belief based only on their planet, or, since they don't travel to other places (planets), they just haven't thought about it.


Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Kayrìlien on March 02, 2010, 12:54:30 AM
Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on March 01, 2010, 08:38:39 PM

The major difference that I see between the Na'vi and Humans concerning religion is that the Na'vi know Eywa exists. They're not exactly sure what Eywa is, but they are 100% certain that the connection between all life on Pandora is real.

On Earth, we have many different religions, each attempting to explain what human intuition cannot explain. There are a great many devout people in this world, most of which believe that their God (Gods? Goddess? Goddesses?) is real and belongs to some higher state of being than humans. However, we humans do not have this direct connection, this proof that a "supernatural" entity exists. It is all up to faith, and basically, the degree to which people believe in a religion, no matter what it may be, defines them.

Looking at history, Earth's religions have a bit of a bad reputation (understatement, I know...) because of the countless acts of violence and destruction that have been carried out in their name. The problems erupt not with the dogma that defines what a religion is, but when people of different religions interact with each other and attempt to persuade, convert, proselytize, evangelize, or whatever you want to call it.

TL;DR: I don't have a problem with religion. I do have a problem with other people telling me that their religion is the truth and that I am a lesser person than they are because I do not share their beliefs. Because this is basically what Parker Selfridge and the RDA are doing to the Na'vi. They are basically saying "I believe that the economic development of Planet Earth is of supreme importance, and I will do whatever it takes to see that happen. Because you do not share this belief, we will not look at you as equals, and will instead try to either convince you to see our perspective (Grace's school) or remove you from the situation altogether (Quaritch's guns 'n' stuff).

But yeah...like Kaltxì Palulukan said, these are my opinions, nothing more. If you agree, that's cool. If you disagree, that's slightly-less-but-still cool. I really don't want any sort of religious flaming to erupt, because that WILL divide a community with a wound that cannot be healed.

Kayrìlien

THAT TEARS IT! I HAVE HEARD ENOUGH!

2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Kayrìlien

Quote from: Rolyu on March 02, 2010, 01:23:49 AM
Gosh.  I feel so lame.  My life's dream is to be the owner of the worlds finest internet cafe/ computer repair/ gaming event house franchise.

Oh, I'm sorry...I don't mean to make other people feel bad. It's your prerogative to try and become the most successful person you can be, and don't let anyone take that away from you. I'd probably frequent your internet cafe if it was near my house, too (and if the coffee was any good  ;)). Just because I'm not an entrepreneurial type of person doesn't mean I look down on people that are; that's basically exactly what I said I don't like about religions!

Oeru txoa livu, srak?

Kayrìlien

Kayrìlien

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on March 02, 2010, 01:29:56 AM

THAT TEARS IT! I HAVE HEARD ENOUGH!


lol I'm honored. My first decree as prophet: I declare the film known as Avatar to be the Kayrìlien/Kaltxì Palulukan Religious Academy of Na'vi Speakers' Best Picture Of All Time! (And there was much rejoicing!)

Kayrìlien

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Hey, wait! What's this about Capitalism as a religion? Where do I sign up? Is there a signing bonus? Can I leverage other members of the congregation to increase my karma share? If I increase quarterly profit, does that mean I get to wear the pointy hat?

:)

I will be the Gordon Gecko of Pandora! I want to option Slefridge's contract so I can add him to my pantheon! OMG My ego loves this! The colonel can be my Anubis!
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Kayrìlien

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on March 02, 2010, 01:39:37 AM
Hey, wait! What's this about Capitalism as a religion? Where do I sign up? Is there a signing bonus? Can I leverage other members of the congregation to increase my karma share? If I increase quarterly profit, does that mean I get to wear the pointy hat?

:)

I will be the Gordon Gecko of Pandora! I want to option Slefridge's contract so I can add him to my pantheon! OMG My ego loves this! The colonel can be my Anubis!

Epic win. Don't forget, the 10% required monthly tithe will be invested in mutual funds guaranteed to double their value in only 10 years, providing a safe and secure financial future for you and your aysmuktu!

Kayrìlien

Kaltxì Palulukan!

#70
OH oh! I want to promote Michael Milken and Bernie Madoff to immediate sainthood so that they can start doing "The Lord's work" for me!" by transforming Na'vi into tangible assets. (We will RULE the futures market!)

:D

(Oh, and I want one of those "Giant Saws-all shovel mining things" from the movie as a personal limo--does that come with a hot tub that seats three?)
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsu'roen

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on March 02, 2010, 01:39:37 AM
Hey, wait! What's this about Capitalism as a religion? Where do I sign up? Is there a signing bonus? Can I leverage other members of the congregation to increase my karma share? If I increase quarterly profit, does that mean I get to wear the pointy hat?

:)

I will be the Gordon Gecko of Pandora! I want to option Slefridge's contract so I can add him to my pantheon! OMG My ego loves this! The colonel can be my Anubis!

Everything that ends in "ism" is a "religion" to some degree by the definition of that ending:
"-ism - a suffix, meaning adherence or following an ideology"
And any ideology is just a surrogate for "traditional" religion.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

Toruk Makto

#72
  With the Na'vi, it seems that their relationship with Eywa is based on trust instead of belief. They don't have to worry about believing in the existence of Eywa any more than we have to worry about believing in the existence of our next door neighbor. But they do have to trust that Eywa will be consistent in preserving the balance of life. I wonder if Eywa explicitly tells them her intentions via tsahaylu, or do the Na'vi have to guess at them? Judging from the apparent lack of religious warfare, I would assume they have the details right from Eywa herself.

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Txepsiyu on March 02, 2010, 07:55:27 AM
With the Na'vi, it seems that their relationship with Eywa is based on trust instead of belief. They don't have to worry about believing in the existence of Eywa any more than we have to worry about believing in the existence of our next door neighbor. But they do have to trust that Eywa will be consistant in preserving the balance of life. I wonder if Eywa explicitly tells them her intentions via tsahaylu, or do the Na'vi have to guess at them? Judging from the apparent lack of religious warfare, I would assume they have the details right from Eywa herself.

Given the job position of "interpreter of Eywa," I would imagine that it takes a special talent to fathom all that Eywa cares to share with the Na'vi, otherwise the job of "Tsahik" would be redundant, and redundancy in nature is usually clipped away, unless there is a constant danger or attrition (bunnies are redundant, but because they keep getting eaten, Nature makes lots of them).

As a real-life tsahik, I can relate to the difficulty of trying to understand "the will of the gods" (a poetic notion) while simultaneously having to keep BOTH feet firmly planted in reality. It is popular in the "white light" sector of the "New Age" culture to think that happy thoughts and bunnies and dolphins are all that is needed to attain some mystical union with (whatever), but the same issues of food, clothing, and shelter--and everything else--is a constant pressure we all have to face. I like that "Eywa protects the balance oflife," rather than "Eywa provides," since that would be unrealistic. Eywa has a LOT to think about, and the Na'vi are a very small part of her concerns. I doubt the Na'vi could fathom everything she has to keep track of, much less her concerns for them specifically.

Well, there's my two cents? Still waking up . . . Who's got my (expletive) coffee? What's wrong with this picture?

Moral of the story: I want a bunny.
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Rolyu

Since the Na'vi all have the same "god," Eywa, a religious war doesn't make sense to me.  Na'vi (so far) appear to be a pretty homogeneous species, as in they all look like Na'vi and nothing else on the planet looks anything close, not even the cute little lemur things.  There may be other Na'vi who appear different than the ones we've seen, (does Pandora have cold dark places?) but that doesn't seem extremely likely.  Part of peoples' problem is that for the most part we believe in race.  We believe that different races that our own differ (genetically) from us substantially.  Genetically, race doesn't exist, it's a false social construct.  There is more genetic variation among the native tribes of "black" people in Southern Africa than there is in the entire rest of the world.  We evolved to look different depending on where we settled about 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, but our genes are two closely related to consider race a factor. However, we base many wars off of a combination of religion and race.  The religious conflict gives one a "just" reason to fight, and the "racial" differences let you know who to shoot.

I think that all Na'vi are blue, and believe in Eywa, therefore.....

Good morning Kaltxi Palulukan!  I see you posted before I could finish mine.  *hands coffee* wake up now, and whip those post men into shape.  I want to see my fabulous box in the mail!

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Rolyu on March 02, 2010, 10:38:49 AM
Since the Na'vi all have the same "god," Eywa, a religious war doesn't make sense to me.  Na'vi (so far) appear to be a pretty homogeneous species, as in they all look like Na'vi and nothing else on the planet looks anything close, not even the cute little lemur things.  There may be other Na'vi who appear different than the ones we've seen, (does Pandora have cold dark places?) but that doesn't seem extremely likely.  Part of peoples' problem is that for the most part we believe in race.  We believe that different races that our own differ (genetically) from us substantially.  Genetically, race doesn't exist, it's a false social construct.  There is more genetic variation among the native tribes of "black" people in Southern Africa than there is in the entire rest of the world.  We evolved to look different depending on where we settled about 10,000 to 15,000 years ago, but our genes are two closely related to consider race a factor. However, we base many wars off of a combination of religion and race.  The religious conflict gives one a "just" reason to fight, and the "racial" differences let you know who to shoot.

I think that all Na'vi are blue, and believe in Eywa, therefore.....

Good morning Kaltxi Palulukan!  I see you posted before I could finish mine.  *hands coffee* wake up now, and whip those post men into shape.  I want to see my fabulous box in the mail!

Hey baby, :)

Thanks--having coffee now. I love religious discussions first thing in the morning. Okay, consider the henry the VIII dilemma (or even back to Martin Luther), which led to an unending war with Ireland. Catholic versus Protestant. Same bat God, same bat Jesus (sorry, for some reason I have the old Batman TV show stuck in my head at the moment). Everyone believing in the same god is no promise of security or peace. History has shown us this time and time again. There are always power struggles in the empire. And it is so easy (on Earth at least) to say "God told me this," and someone else can say the same, but when two people who say such things disagree, well we have seen the devastation that causes. Race is indeed a convenient way of demonizing others, but any reason will do really, and religion (at least on Earth) has been just the stick to use. But I like your points, so I will not question them at this time--I am still half-asleep anyway.

But I will say that the ASG has a green Na'vi and a purple one :)  I have been looking for this. Keep in mind that this is one image, and it is in the ASG, which some unguided souls dare to question the authority of (<--see what I did? Get it? In a thread about religion I pulled the "sacred authority" card of story canon by virtue of the fact that this is the "official text"? Oh well, anyway...) The point is that we may or not see different hued Na'vi, and that will come own to JC's thoughts on this. It may be that he wanted subtle differences at first, and then changed his mind to make them homogeneous.

But . . . even if ALL Na'vi are the same hue of cyan, they all have different stripe patterns, and dots that are "recognizable from (blah blah blah--check the ASG for exact details) at night." This alone is enough to allow finger pointing and ridicule--should any Na'vi be so unkind. But this leads us back to Eywa. Eywa protects the balance of life, and therefore probably dislikes Na'vi social immaturity, (the kind we see on Earth), and therefore has long ago weeded out any "troublemakers." A hungry Thanator is always close at hand if someone gets too cocky, after all.

Okay, and as to Pandoran geology. "The good book" (ASG) states that Pandora has all kinds of climates, and that Na'vi are found everywhere, including in "sub arctic regions." Now, if *my* (Na'vi) mom and dad were eskimo Na'vi's, I would wonder why they didn't just move to a location where there were trees, and fruits, and whatnot--but then again, here on earth we have ancient civilizations that saw fit to live in the snow, or the baking-hot desert. I don't know why, but people seem to like living where they do. I would be keen to see what evolution has done to "snow Na'vi." I doubt there are any true deserts on Pandora, given the massive amounts of coastline, and thus lack of vast stretches of inland areas that are not close to water sources.

Okay, byfornow
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsu'roen

Hues of blue, stripe pattern? - Bah!    ;D
Now there will be Na'vi with 5 fingers on their hands (I'm just assuming that gene is dominant ;D).
And they can claim to be superior as they are descendents of the 5. (through Neytiri) and 6. (Jake) Toruk Makto!
So there might be a new religious and worldly "upper class" of Na'vi - like for example the Brahmans in India.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

Toruk Makto

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on March 02, 2010, 10:30:34 AM
Moral of the story: I want a bunny.


Fluffy bunnies are overrated. And they are tough and chewy.

Get a burger instead.

Lì'fyari leNa'vi 'Rrtamì, vay set 'almong a fra'u zera'u ta ngrrpongu
Na'vi Dictionary: http://files.learnnavi.org/dicts/NaviDictionary.pdf

Tìng Eywatikìte'e

Agree with Kaltxi Palulukan. Same god doesn't mean peace and harmony. Let us all remember that Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all "Sons of Abraham," and we can see where that has taken us. >.> But that's a dangerous topic to stray to...

With being Na'vi homogenous...well remember that we've only seen a small amount of them from a reasonably close area. Once we've seen Na'vi from the other side of Pandora we can make a more stable statement. I don't doubt though that there are subtle differences between Na'vi tribes in other areas, basic evolution states so. Still that is another topic I've believe we've started talking about somewhere else (Na'vi biology...or was it Na'vi tribes...oh well, something like that >.>)

*crap have to get to class >.> will continue later*
Oeri lu Eywayä 'eveng


Coyote

Hmmm, I've been working on a Eskimo Na'vi tribe with Tanhiyarina in the RP. Slightly paler shade of blue, and stripes that are more of a dark cream color that the straw color the Omatikaya have. Also, hair that is chocolatey-brown color instead of the solid black.

I'm assuming that since Eywa has "nodes" (Soul Trees) all over Pandora, it is likely to assume that their language at least will be spoken the same pretty much all over, with maybe only a few very minor regional variations... unless Eywa would want to kep them seperated by langauges at some level, for some unfathomable reason?  ???
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!


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