Religions?

[Rolyu]

Like in the story of Babylon, how God destroys the city and causes everyone to speak different tongues so they don't get too full of themselves? 

Is Eywa that involved, I wonder?

[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

Hues of blue, stripe pattern? - Bah!   
Now there will be Na'vi with 5 fingers on their hands (I'm just assuming that gene is dominant ).
And they can claim to be superior as they are descendents of the 5. (through Neytiri) and 6. (Jake) Toruk Makto!
So there might be a new religious and worldly "upper class" of Na'vi - like for example the Brahmans in India.

I don't like to think like that. It completely ruins everything for me.

[Fnua Atxkxe]

A Na'vi class system, I doubt it. There entire way of life is devoted to Eywa and the good of the people. There is currently no pressure on the Na'vi to undergo radical change and, having seen the tawtute, they will obviously shy away from change having seen what it did to the humans

[Tsawla Eltu Tsamsiyu]

Undoubtedly! I would think because science fiction is what COULD happen, that humans would try to keep it that way. Fiction. Plenty of things that happened in sci-fi books/films/etc. are happening now (or have happened). I read once that a man wrote a book. In that book there was the world's largest sea-faring ship called the Titanica (or something like that) and guess what...it hit an iceberg and sunk. Sound familiar? That was sci-fi, came true, and turned out to be a total disaster in the end.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Hues of blue, stripe pattern? - Bah!   
Now there will be Na'vi with 5 fingers on their hands (I'm just assuming that gene is dominant ).
And they can claim to be superior as they are descendents of the 5. (through Neytiri) and 6. (Jake) Toruk Makto!
So there might be a new religious and worldly "upper class" of Na'vi - like for example the Brahmans in India.

Yeah, I wanted to comment on this two months ago (but I forgot). Thanks fro bringing this up. My idea was that they would be laughed at as impure, BUT being T.M. descendants--or more correctly DOUBLE T.M. descendants (you come from a long line of Toruk Maktos--We expect great things of you), they might have a lot of pressure on them to earn their place in history.

[Tsu'roen]

Undoubtedly! I would think because science fiction is what COULD happen, that humans would try to keep it that way. Fiction. Plenty of things that happened in sci-fi books/films/etc. are happening now (or have happened). I read once that a man wrote a book. In that book there was the world's largest sea-faring ship called the Titanica (or something like that) and guess what...it hit an iceberg and sunk. Sound familiar? That was sci-fi, came true, and turned out to be a total disaster in the end.

That book is The Wreck of the Titan Or, Futility by Morgan Robertson
Product Description
"This book was written 14 years before the sinking of the Titanic. The similarities between the fictional sinking of the Titan and the real-life sinking of the RMS Titanic in 1912 are remarkable. So remarkable in fact that this book has often been sighted as the one indisputable example of physic power. However the author Morgan Robertson never claimed to be physic. Decide for yourself."

[Rolyu]

Hues of blue, stripe pattern? - Bah!   
Now there will be Na'vi with 5 fingers on their hands (I'm just assuming that gene is dominant ).
And they can claim to be superior as they are descendents of the 5. (through Neytiri) and 6. (Jake) Toruk Makto!
So there might be a new religious and worldly "upper class" of Na'vi - like for example the Brahmans in India.

Yeah, I wanted to comment on this two months ago (but I forgot). Thanks fro bringing this up. My idea was that they would be laughed at as impure, BUT being T.M. descendants--or more correctly DOUBLE T.M. descendants (you come from a long line of Toruk Maktos--We expect great things of you), they might have a lot of pressure on them to earn their place in history.

That idea seems fair.  I could cause a rift, however, if not everyone agrees with Jake's greatness.

[Coyote]

Unless people remember that Jake willingly placed himself as subservient to Tsu'Tey and recognized him as Chief. It could be interpreted that the 5-fingered decendants of two lines of Toruk Makto are a particularly able General/Warrior class.

[ShadowedSin]

I doubt the Na'vi have a class or will ever have a class system. Besides major conjecture and speculation there is no proof. Because their kinship and general internal clan organization is unknown we have no idea.

However, as I've said in previous threads, the Na'vi seem to practice a mixture of basic Band/Bigman society and early chiefdom. They lack an upper social ruling class (which is the mark of a chiefdom) and instead seem to rely upon those with achievement. Status is not earned through lineage but through action and show of skill.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

I doubt the Na'vi have a class or will ever have a class system. Besides major conjecture and speculation there is no proof. Because their kinship and general internal clan organization is unknown we have no idea.

However, as I've said in previous threads, the Na'vi seem to practice a mixture of basic Band/Bigman society and early chiefdom. They lack an upper social ruling class (which is the mark of a chiefdom) and instead seem to rely upon those with achievement. Status is not earned through lineage but through action and show of skill.

First: great points--as always. Now, my thoughts on this:

Yes, and no. Neytiri was Olo'eyktan's daughter AND tsahik's daughter. That speaks of lineage. Her grandfather's grandfather (not Tsu'tey's necessarily, although withe the tribe being so closely knit--it may have been his as well) was the last Toruk Makto. I would like to know more about Tsu'tey, even though I respect/strongly dislike him. Also, in the ASG, it says the bows are handed down ... hold on... let me dig it out... "from generation to generation."

Okay, here we have a nondescript description, which could apply to either side of this--so it is a wash. Eytukan DID give his bow to his daughter--not to Tsu'tey. Had he another hour to live, we might have seen a different story, but as he did not, I am assuming it stays with her, especially since she used it in the final battle, rather than subserviently handing it over to the "man of the house."

So, in summation: my thoughts are: Good points. I am not sold on the last sentence though. I do agree that any class sytem would be un-Pandoran, but I also wonder how poisoned the well has been by those damnedable tawtutes. Jake will have to go 110% Na'vi to overcome his 5-finger/small eye (and possibly-->"possibly" smell) status, but throughout the movie, and the ASG, the Na'vi are portrayed as exceptionally welcoming (inhumanly so)--with the exception of Tsu'tey, and to a lesser extent Eytukan. They will probably make it out to be a funny (harmless) running joke.

[ShadowedSin]

Yes, and no. Neytiri was Olo'eyktan's daughter AND tsahik's daughter. That speaks of lineage. Her grandfather's grandfather (not Tsu'tey's necessarily, although withe the tribe being so closely knit--it may have been his as well) was the last Toruk Makto. I would like to know more about Tsu'tey, even though I respect/strongly dislike him. Also, in the ASG, it says the bows are handed down ... hold on... let me dig it out... "from generation to generation."

Okay, here we have a nondescript description, which could apply to either side of this--so it is a wash. Eytukan DID give his bow to his daughter--not to Tsu'tey. Had he another hour to live, we might have seen a different story, but as he did not, I am assuming it stays with her, especially since she used it in the final battle, rather than subserviently handing it over to the "man of the house."

But here is the problem Kaltxi, that description alone points to a bilaterial lineage system in the least. This means that both th emothers and the father's relations are important. But since we only have an example of the bow we really can't fathom the full extend of their inheritance which really makes it hard to understand their Kinship.

Btw, I wasn't denying a system of lineage, but that we don't know how it exactly works. What we have right now is pretty lacking because family can be quite complex.

The way Jake was acting, I see him adopting more of a Na'vi perspective than a human. I do think Lineage could play into support, but actual achievement is what it takes to actually get support. This makes sense in the way that people will respect a child of a renowned individual, but probably won't actually support him unless he does something. But also if said person can't do something they don't support him. Aka top hunter's son sucks as hunter, he can't gather enough support to really lead anyone.

When I mention the bigman concept, it works off the idea that when in certain situations (war, hunting) the person with the most skill and experience is the one that people if they respect that person is deferred too. Such deference is also earned through feasts, or gift giving by the bigman to his supporters. This I could really see happening in Na'vi culture.

[Toruk Makto]

Steering to topic....   Class-->-->Religion

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

But here is the problem Kaltxi, that description alone points to a bilaterial lineage system in the least. This means that both the mothers and the father's relations are important. But since we only have an example of the bow we really can't fathom the full extend of their inheritance which really makes it hard to understand their Kinship.

Yes, yes...

Btw, I wasn't denying a system of lineage, but that we don't know how it exactly works. What we have right now is pretty lacking because family can be quite complex.

Also yes, and more yes. (I tend to agree).

The way Jake was acting, I see him adopting more of a Na'vi perspective than a human.

Also also yes. It seems that part of the whole reason Eywa really responded to him (you <generic "you," for conversational purposes> have to admit, Eywa really did go out of her way to specifically help Jake throughout the movie, but mostly after he committed himself to her service--through his heart and intent, not by the words that came out of his mouth) is that because "instead of getting some samples" he truly, deeply, desired to *be* Na'vi; to shed skin (like a snake shedding old, worn out clothes) to reveal pink new baby skin eager to experience Pandora (and thus "Eywa"). By the way, do they give out Oscars for brilliance?

I do think Lineage could play into support, but actual achievement is what it takes to actually get support.

Ah.... ha! Now I have you! Here is where we disagree! You say "get." I say "maintain." Hmm... that was rather anticlimactic. Yeah, (got tired of saying "yes") I would have to say that achievement is essential to (get/maintain "ing") the support of the tribe--AND Eywa!

This makes sense in the way that people will respect a child of a renowned individual, but probably won't actually support him unless he does something. But also if said person can't do something they don't support him. Aka top hunter's son sucks as hunter, he can't gather enough support to really lead anyone.

Yeah--this is something I strongly feel as well. (Look mister--we can't have a proper argument if we keep going on agreeing on everything!

Argument Clinic)

I have been thinking a lot about Tsu'tey (whom I respect/hate). He had the skills of hunter and warrior, but no skill at adaptation. That makes me question his effectiveness (in the long run) of Olo'eyktan. Nature commands "adapt or die." Technically there are three basic responses we see repeated successfully:

1--Be cardinal: if your environment is not conducive to your survival--change it.
2--Be fixed: Outlast, endure, toughen up, overcome your environment--without changing. This seems to be a very rare phenomenon.
3--Be mutable: Change dammit! No sense being a damned fool about it. Adapt to your environment and survive.

When I mention the bigman concept, it works off the idea that when in certain situations (war, hunting) the person with the most skill and experience is the one that people if they respect that person is deferred too. Such deference is also earned through feasts, or gift giving by the bigman to his supporters. This I could really see happening in Na'vi culture.

I see that to a point, but not so much as in human tribes. The Na'vi seem so much more egalitarian. Yes, Tsu'tey and Moat sat by the fire with Olo'eyktan, but so did others. I see your philosophy and I like much of what is written here, but I feel that our human examples (the ones I am familiar with at least) are barbaric and almost too tyrannical or dictatorial for Na'vi purposes. It's as if (as in other examples we have seen of the Na'vi) that they are simply far more evolved than us--and that may be the point that JC is trying to get through to the masses--that scientific evolution is no match for true individual/societal evolution in the long run, and that "more and bigger toys" (like the Buddha might say) only lead to emptiness and suffering in the end.

Srak?

[Ash]

I am not sure if this is the right thread, but your last paragraph does point in roughly the same direction as what I am currently thinking about. I also do not yet have the whole complex together, but anyway...

Do you think, the Na'vi did trade in their technical development(what might be called "progress") for spiritual development?

To outline a bit more:
Afaik what we see from the Na'vi lifestyle is dubbed "neolithic" lifestyle, as they already changed from a nomadic hunter/gatherer-society to a settled-down life with first domestication of animals. No sign of agriculture yet.

Two of the statements about Eywa are "Eywa provides(not as in "drops tasty banana-fruit and suicidal hexapede at your front door, if you could be bothered to get up before ten feel free to grab one" but as in "gives you the opportunity to provide for yourself"(my interpretation))" and "Eywa maintains the balance". These two combined can easily lead to "Eywa will always see to that you will have enough opportunity to feed yourself and acquire the things you need - as long as you do not go overboard and start to hoard more than you need". (I know that basically we do have similar regulation here, you know the stuff with hunter population growing too much or thinning the prey population too much, they will starve later and so their population will shrink a.s.o - I only imagine Eywa to balance the scales a bit earlier, a.i. groups of a species that is being preyed on feel the urge to leave the area for some time, like that)

The Na'vi seem to have taken on a lifestyle that has no need for a lot of storage/stocking/hoarding of any kind, as material possessions seem to be very limited in general(afaik they only do have a kind of "rack" that does hold some belongings like weapons, jewelery, change of loincloth, flight-leggins etc).

This kind of attitude to me seems to be in the same line as their perception of the workings of Eywa. So what I am thinking about at the moment is: Could the Na'vi have invented new things that could be associated with a more "civilized"/"progressive"/comfortable life like better weapons, agriculture and whatever, but decided to not follow that path and keep things the way they are? And instead, to more pursue a path of spirituality and attunement to maintain or strengthen their connection to Eywa/all that surrounds them/their kin? And with that developed(or maintained) a sensitivity that on one hand results in their deep connection to all things living as well as a socitely with very high social standards?*

As mentioned this is very sketchy at the moment, so feel free to point out any flaws 

*I am also thinking if the Na'vi would even have a concept of "religion", as this seems to be an already to big separation from everything else. Isn't their religion just "life"?

[Tsa'räni]

"Necessity is the mother of invention."  While that's a terribly cliched quote, it's also very true.  Invention is almost always brought about through some kind of need.  Quite simply, the Na'vi have had no need to move their technology level beyond what it is.  We know their population has been stable for a very long time (according to the ASG), so obviously they are not losing a battle with disease, dangers of their environment, warring clans, or whatever else.  And with none of those factors, including ever increasing population (a problem humans have often faced), to deal with, the need to drive further technological advancements just isn't there.

So for me, I doubt it has been a conscious decision of passing up "inventions" to focus on spirituality.  It's more likely a byproduct of their life on Pandora and their interactions with Eywa.

Edit - Btw, this concept is summarized beautifully in the movie when Jake says in his log something like, "We have nothing they want."  Or maybe he uses "need"...I can't remember at this point.

[magne]

"Necessity is the mother of invention."  While that's a terribly cliched quote, it's also very true.  Invention is almost always brought about through some kind of need.  Quite simply, the Na'vi have had no need to move their technology level beyond what it is.  We know their population has been stable for a very long time (according to the ASG), so obviously they are not losing a battle with disease, dangers of their environment, warring clans, or whatever else.  And with none of those factors, including ever increasing population (a problem humans have often faced), to deal with, the need to drive further technological advancements just isn't there.

So for me, I doubt it has been a conscious decision of passing up "inventions" to focus on spirituality.  It's more likely a byproduct of their life on Pandora and their interactions with Eywa.

Edit - Btw, this concept is summarized beautifully in the movie when Jake says in his log something like, "We have nothing they want."  Or maybe he uses "need"...I can't remember at this point.

Yes, full time agriculture at a Stone Age level is more labour intensive than hunting gathering and probably less fun. Its mention that the Na'vi do some agriculture it might be that they plant some hard to find vegetables or improve the conditions for some fruit trees. They also domesticate animals for transport. The main benefit of agriculture is that you can feed more people on a smaller area than hunting so you switch then you gets population problems. As their population is limited they would have no need for farming. Iron would not work well on Pandora because of the magnet field, they might use copper but it would be hard to get and not much better than the reinforced bone so it would be mostly used in jewellery and small tools like fishing hooks and needles.

The Na'vi are pretty smart not to get dependent on humans and RDA, first they would have to do as they tell, secondary humans might leave suddenly if they discover how to make unobtainium themselves and cut off the supply.

One theory I read was that the Na'vi created Eywa to teraform Pandora thousands of years ago, they to where after unobtainium. Later they learned how to manufacture it at and closed down the mining operation but some Na'vi wanted to stay behind, perhaps they rebelled. Now their main base similar to hells gate burned down and with it all the production capacity. 

[Coyote]

I have been thinking a lot about Tsu'tey (whom I respect/hate). He had the skills of hunter and warrior, but no skill at adaptation. That makes me question his effectiveness (in the long run) of Olo'eyktan.

Hence my pet theory that Mo'at set up the situation between Neytiri and Jake. I have a feeling that Moa't had decided that Tsu'Tey was not suited to becoming the leader due to his temperament, and threw Jake into Neytiri's tutelage to see what would happen. I doubt she intended Jake to steal away Neytiri, but I do believe she was willing to "see what will happen". Jake apparantly had been chosen by Eywa after all --why, and to what extent, was still unknown-- so she figured he had to have something going for him.

Jake's presence would force Tsu'Tey to adapt and grow up, or... who knew what? Mo'at could have assigned any Na'vi to be Jake's teacher. She deliberatly created a triangle by assigning Neytiri to him.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Wahw... dem's sum smert peepo hear. (I really have to step up my game)

Great posts, all around:

@ Ash. That post was poetry: fun to read and very well put together. My only comment will be, "well spoken." Okay, I will say this: JC might have been showing us what religions have been trying to teach us for aeons (yes, not millenia; aeons). We are the shepherds of this world, the custodians, and we must live in balance with it. But who wants to do that? "WHO has my goddamned Hummer? What's wrong with this picture?"

@ Tsa'räni. Necessity isn't the mother of invention. laziness is  If you think about that long enough you will see how there is a nice grey area where need becomes annoyance and annoyance develops into creation. The Na'vi "could use" better stuff to their ends, but like any "fixed" (see above) society, they know what works for them and are comfortable with it. However, with some good old-fashioned human "marketing," we could change all that. Selfridge's flaw was that he was not a salesman. He felt he could decide what the Na'vi needed and provide it "ready made."

But rules of commerce dictate that your customers must want your product. You must create a feeding frenzy. People don't buy what they need. They buy what they want. Just look at America: Mc Donald's, Walmart, "Dancing With the Stars." <---Really? Bah. No wonder the general public is so unhappy and always chasing after things it cannot have, insulting and judging other people. They are collectively buying into the concept of happiness through materialism, and that "as long as you get YOUR needs met," the tribe will absorb your waste/lies/greed.

@ Coyote. Great post. Is this guy smart, or what? I should have thought of that. (And you know how I feel about people who are smarter than I am. You are now on the list. grrr...)

[Tsa'räni]

I don't see human marketing changing the Na'vi way of thinking - not as a whole, at least.  The Na'vi and their lives on Pandora are too different to draw many solid comparisons in human cultures.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Blasphemy!

You dare question the power of mass marketing? Someone, call the Pepsico Police! We have a non-consumer here!



(the rest of you--just keep spending)