Religions?

[Elektrolurch]

Kaltxì frapo!

I just read through the thread, where someone thought about Eywa as a new god. It's a bit too overrated. When we truly want to believe or trust in Eywa or Gaia, we have to generalize this. The Na'vi god simply embodies the god of hundreds of nature religions we have on Earth. There are some questions to ask.

Would that religion be a monotheistic one, or "omnitheistic"?

As we see in the film, the pray for the one and only Eywa, but could we maybe call the complex of all live on Pandora Eywa?

Does it mind what we call the god?

Gaia and Eywa are the same, there lots of more names, sorry for I only know these two.


Looking forward to hearing from you.

Kìyevame, ulte Eywa si Gaia ayngahu, ma smùkan si smukè

[Coyote]

The thing to bear in mind is that a religion relies on "faith". Faith means you are willing to accept something, and believe in it, even without visible proof-- in a way, that's kinda the whole idea.

With the Na'vi, they don't need to have "faith" in Eywa's existance-- they get that almost every day. They know for a fact their "god" exists. The only thing that they need to have "faith" in, therefore, is that Eywa is somehow guiding things towards a proper path or conclusion, and that whatever bizarre, painful, or nonsense events you are experiencing at any given moment is part of some guiding principle that Eywa is steering towards.

On Earth, religious people first have to accept on faith that God exists, period. Then they also have to take the step that everything they are experiencing is part of that god's plan (unless you're a Deist, but even non-interference, in a way, reflects the will of God to "let things unfold as they will"). 

Eywa exists in the world of Avatar, the remaining questions are not on her being, but how far along into sentience is she? It would seem she is fairly sentient and able to exert a great deal of control over her life-forms when she wills it, as evinced by the suicidal swarm attacks against the RDA in the final scene, and the Palulukan not only passing up Neytiri as a food source, but bowing to her to offer a ride. Eywa took control of thousands, possibly millions, of animals. That implies a lot of sentience and control, or at least control potential.

But Eywa is not so much a "god" as simply a force of nature-- the biggest one discovered by humanity; in fact she is on a scale so incomprehensible that even the researchers in direct contact have trouble coming to grips with it.

[Elektrolurch]

Wow! A genius is talking to me.

But would it be possible to "create" a god, when all life gets together in one collective? Eywa doesn't control the animals or the life, but they control themselves?



I also believe in a big difference between nature religions or gods and human religions. Nature has ever existed, and will ever exist, but humanity won't! I also like the idea of balance of Nature, it's some kind of compatible with science.

[Coyote]

Wow! A genius is talking to me.

Shucks, just a guy waith way too much time for thinkin'. 

But would it be possible to "create" a god, when all life gets together in one collective? Eywa doesn't control the animals or the life, but they control themselves?

A group consciousness? You could call it whatever you want, but to call it "god" might not make sense (or be seen as supremely arrogant on our part). Also, if we knowingly created a god, it would be sort of silly to hold it reverent, since we'd know already that it was artificial, and made by the hand of man (so to speak). Again, a "god" implies faith at some level, and if we know exactly where our god came from, the need to rely on faith is negated.

I could also see existing religions tearing down such a god, and attacking outright, since in Judeo-Christian philosophy, such a creation would be, technically, idolatry.

I also believe in a big difference between nature religions or gods and human religions. Nature has ever existed, and will ever exist, but humanity won't! I also like the idea of balance of Nature, it's some kind of compatible with science.

Well, I'd wager the first religions were mankind's unscienctific way to explain nature.  I always had a pet theory that Moses went up to Mt. Sinai and asked God "how did you make all this?" and God said, "well, I had swirls of gas and dust form accretion discs, and when they acquired enough density to assume gravitational mass, I..." [Notices Moses's deer-in-the-headlights look] "...um... seven days, day and night, called it good, and here we are."

But that's just me.

Nature does its thing, quietly chugging away, and so far you're right-- there's no proof that humanity and intelligence is anything more than a passing fad in the development cycle. Dinosaurs in one form or another ruled this planet for hundreds of millions of years and humanity's experiment with self-awareness and mammalian intellect has only been going on (arguably) for about 100,000 years-- so so far, intellect has an unproven track record, and cold-blooded brute strength still shows that it held the most promise for success.

We do have self-awareness, which might give us an edge, but not as long as we keep allowing ourselves to be sidetracked by our self-obsessed consumerism. Humans think that planning for the next ten years is hard and unrealistic; a plan for the next year is even hard for some to fathom; we need to be thinking about generations to come if we're to truly be successful.

But as for nature vs. man-made religions... I think it is in our human nature to seek gods or higher power explanations, whether it be "God(s)" or "Gaia" because it makes us feel special when we're down, and allows us someone to gripe to when we feel like we're being kicked around, or even someone to blame our misfortunes on. And someone to thank when things go our way. A "nature" god would probably be the very process of evolution itself, and our hand in it... but in such an active system, why waste time muttering incantations when we can "perform rites" by doing something ethical/moral to save the planet and the critters on it?

I mean, praying in a church --when you get down to it-- is just a bunch of people mumbling to empty air. If there is a God who cares about you, do you think He or She truly cares if you say something on certain days in certain buildings? If God created the world, then the whole place is God's "church" or temple, what have you. Anywhere is holy enough. "Praying" in an active Gaia would mean going out and planting seedlings, or teaching children where our food really come sfrom and that we should be respectful of all the sources we draw from.

I like the idea, personally, and feel there's no way the two are incompatible. Modern "man-made" religion seems to insulate us from the natural world. "Religion" is artificial and social; "sprituality" is, on the other hand, very natural.

But again-- that's just my opinion.

[Toruk Makto]

And then we have this stuff:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-goldberg29-2009dec29,0,4550777.column

..."What would have been controversial is if -- somehow -- Cameron had made a movie in which the good guys accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts.
  Of course, that sounds outlandish and absurd, but that's the point, isn't it? We live in an age in which it's the norm to speak glowingly of spirituality but derisively of traditional religion. If the Na'Vi were Roman Catholics, there would be boycotts and protests. Make the oversized Smurfs Rousseauian noble savages and everyone nods along, save for a few cranky right-wingers."...

  I know I am going to be flamed to a delicate crisp for saying this, but why can't we even enjoy a good movie without having "Jesus" thrown at us yet again by these kind of people?

[Coyote]

I know I am going to be flamed to a delicate crisp for saying this, but why can't we even enjoy a good movie without having "Jesus" thrown at us yet again by these kind of people?

For many people who are "saved" by Jesus, they honestly feel that they are doing you a favor by offering you the same. For some of these people, it is a respectful duty to go out and invite you --and your soul-- the same lifeline they've been given. To them, they feel that they are giving a drowning man a life preserver.

Of course, there's another point of view: they either converted, or they "re-awakened" to the religion they were passively born into, and they want to validate their experience by having others jump on the same bandwagon. If I were the first person to see "Avatar", and thought it was the best movie in the world, and I convince you to see it and you also come out thinking it's the best movie in the world, then my joyful experience with "Avatar" has been validated by your becoming a fan as well. Same with religion.

And true, there's also those weak and shallow folks who feel like everyone around them must reflect their same values and ideals, otherwise they don't feel "safe". Different people scare them; make them think "what if I'm wrong, and the different guy is right?" So they try to pound you into their mould to make them feel secure.

In our society --"Western" society-- it is mostly Christians, but a lot of religions go back and forth on this. Remember, in India, for example, it is Hindu vs. Muslim. Any culture with a dominant religion will tend to forcibly align society to their point of view, and see anyone not following along with a sense of dumbfounded amazement that they can function, or with hostility. It would almost be funny if it weren't for the "hostility" part.

[Elektrolurch]

Sorry for interrupting the discussion, but could we maybe get away from Jesus Christ? I'm a very censorious person about that. There's the catholic religion and the clergy....

[Coyote]

Unfortunately, in any thread about religion, Christianity is bound to come up sooner or later, since it is the one most of the people in our societies will have had experience with, good or bad. Being Jewish I'm kinda indifferent, myself, and take each person as they are, individually.

In Iraq, I mostly hung with the Pagan troops, oddly enough. Lots of fun, I'll say. 

[Elektrolurch]

I'd love to learn from other religions, I only know two ways. In this case, you have to think about it as generalized and objective as possible.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

An interesting thing to keep in mind is that in Eastern religions, and in Na'vi philosophy, the term "worship" means only: "respect and admiration, and an attempt to align/attune oneself to," where as Western religions demand groveling, abasement, guilt, and perpetual fear/judgment/accusation, and of course the destruction of any who disagree.

Whether the Na'vi philosophy/religion is--how did you say? monotheistic or "omnitheistic"? (<-- me likie) what is clear is that their society reflects a more mature understanding of physical reality due to their complete lack of using religion as a bludgeon to dominate the populace, and funnel all power into the hands of a small elite. The Na'vi are probably most close to Buddhism in their freedom from feudalistic-style deities who lord over their charges (aytute), but their ancestor reverence reminds me of Shinto.

[Tsu'roen]

The thing to bear in mind is that a religion relies on "faith". Faith means you are willing to accept something, and believe in it, even without visible proof-- in a way, that's kinda the whole idea.

With the Na'vi, they don't need to have "faith" in Eywa's existance-- they get that almost every day. They know for a fact their "god" exists. The only thing that they need to have "faith" in, therefore, is that Eywa is somehow guiding things towards a proper path or conclusion, and that whatever bizarre, painful, or nonsense events you are experiencing at any given moment is part of some guiding principle that Eywa is steering towards.

On Earth, religious people first have to accept on faith that God exists, period. Then they also have to take the step that everything they are experiencing is part of that god's plan (unless you're a Deist, but even non-interference, in a way, reflects the will of God to "let things unfold as they will").  

Eywa exists in the world of Avatar, the remaining questions are not on her being, but how far along into sentience is she? It would seem she is fairly sentient and able to exert a great deal of control over her life-forms when she wills it, as evinced by the suicidal swarm attacks against the RDA in the final scene, and the Palulukan not only passing up Neytiri as a food source, but bowing to her to offer a ride. Eywa took control of thousands, possibly millions, of animals. That implies a lot of sentience and control, or at least control potential.

But Eywa is not so much a "god" as simply a force of nature-- the biggest one discovered by humanity; in fact she is on a scale so incomprehensible that even the researchers in direct contact have trouble coming to grips with it.

Jep! That pretty much nails it!

As for Christianity - I rather keep my personal opinion for myself (as I want to live a little longer and be able to see Avatar 2 & 3) and rather cite the great Mohandas "Mahatma" Gandhi:  

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

And this one fits so nicely the theme of Avatar I simply couldn't leave it out:
"When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said "Let us pray." We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land." ~ Desmond Tutu

[Tanhìyärina']

Perhaps a word would be "pantheistic," meaning that god is everywhere and is the sum of all things.  All things, literally, to that belief system, are god.  (Different from panentheistic, which would be god exists in all things but isn't necessarily the same as all things.)  On Pandora, Eywa is everything.  Everything is part of Eywa.  (Though "omnitheistic" is a cool word, but it's more often used as a belief that every religion ultimately worships the same god-- the whole "there is one mountain, and many paths up it" thing.)

Gaia is a good parallel-- not necessarily the Greek Gaia, the planet personified, but more the modern Gaia hypothesis, which posits that the world is self-correcting, seeking balance.  Seems almost exactly like Eywa, only the Na'vi can tsahaylu with the sum of all things and we can't, not as literally.

[ShadowedSin]

And then we have this stuff:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-goldberg29-2009dec29,0,4550777.column

..."What would have been controversial is if -- somehow -- Cameron had made a movie in which the good guys accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts.
  Of course, that sounds outlandish and absurd, but that's the point, isn't it? We live in an age in which it's the norm to speak glowingly of spirituality but derisively of traditional religion. If the Na'Vi were Roman Catholics, there would be boycotts and protests. Make the oversized Smurfs Rousseauian noble savages and everyone nods along, save for a few cranky right-wingers."...

  I know I am going to be flamed to a delicate crisp for saying this, but why can't we even enjoy a good movie without having "Jesus" thrown at us yet again by these kind of people?

I won't flame you at all. I think people misuse the religious figures of something outright beautiful for a distorted interpretation. This is a common theme found when people use faith to justify their personal views of it.

[Elektrolurch]

Religions are a good way to easily gain might in our world... that's pretty interesting, I think.

[Pamtseotu]

im a christian, but not because i wanted to be one, my parents and i dont believe in god but i dont know why you all are saying that you say the same thing about christians than the christians are saying about you


to be honest every religion is WRONG,

Pandora by the way is a giant brain where information is stored and eywa controlls the animals (at the end of the movie the animals start to attack the humans).

eywa isnt a god eywa isnt a thing eywa is just a name of something that we call nature.

nature controlls too but it isnt a god it isnt a thing we dont need to believe in it but still it exists.


sorry for bad english <----european

[Elektrolurch]

Np, I'm Austrian


What I love about nature religions is, that they are kinda compatible to sciences... And I don't hate the christian religion itself, I sometimes admire it... 2000 years ago, it was new to the people if they are told not to kill anyone. It's the clergy that makes me shiver...

[Coyote]

It seems that if a religion works for you, then that religion works. It does not necessarily mean it will work for anyone else, and in fact if a person tries to pressure another into adopting his or her own beliefs, then it's like trying to get someone to wear clothes that don't fit. They'll be uncomfortable from that point on.

I admire Islam, for example, but I could never practice it; same with Hinduism and Buddhism. While most individual Christians I've met are really nice people, "Christianity" itself, at least these days, kinda scares me since in the USA it has become this grouchy, all-or-nothing type belief system that tries to make everyone fit the same mould. I'd say the problem is not with the church members themselves (a few of them, maybe, not the majority) but the corrupt leaders that have one foot in religion and one foot in politics and are using it to make them richer and more powerful.

You'll find that everywhere-- a dominant religion has those types of people. In Israel it was a group of ultra-Orthodox Rabbis in an organization called Shas that had a stranglehold on the government. There is the Mullah regime in Iran, and I'm sure there are Hindu groups in India, for example, that do the same thing there...

[Elektrolurch]

Agreed, but the question I have to ask is, who or what is Eywa? From your point of view.

[Pamtseotu]

Eywa would be nature nobody can explai it nobody sees it nobody touches it but it exists if you want to have mre detailed explenation then pm me i will give you my skype name

[Coyote]

Agreed, but the question I have to ask is, who or what is Eywa? From your point of view.

It'd be a vast, planet-wide intelligence made up of all life on Pandora. It is primarily in the plantlife, which has grown together and transmits data within itself, and the animal life plugs in with Tsaheylu as needed-- but is otherwise pretty much left to itself.

I would argue that Eywa is self-aware, and is able to direct the actions of the "lower" animals (ie, not the Na'vi). In the attack against the RDA, animals swarmed the Security troops even to the point of suicide, setting aside their own self-preservation instincts so that the overall system could survive.

To the Na'vi, this vast intelligence appears to be a god, and is in fact able to do a god's things (from their perspective-- to Eywa it may be no big deal at all) when called upon (the body transfer). It may not be "god" in the true sense of the word, but it is arguably the closest thing encountered by any species that can qualify.

I'd be curious to know what Eywa feels or thinks about the creatures of Pandora/Eywa'evenga, if she is amused by the Na'vi's prayers and rituals to her, or if she doesn't even notice, or if she likes them. It will also be interesting to note what might happen to Eywa's awareness now that she has, indeed, looked into Grace's consciousness to see what humans are all about. Eywa now has access to all sorts of "military intelligence" about humanity, including just knowing what it means to grow up and be a kid in the blasted society that is alluded to in the movie and books.