The Omaticayan Flute

[Toruk Makto]

Perhaps Eywa was tired of the saxophones?

Kelutrel was burned to the ground. Unless the flute was fire-proof, it is probably not there anymore.

[Tsa'räni]

Kelutrel was burned to the ground. Unless the flute was fire-proof, it is probably not there anymore.

I don't think that's such an easy claim to make.

To start with, many would be amazed at what can sometimes survive right in the middle of a raging fire with seemingly little to no protection.  It's essentially the same concept as finding people buried almost unharmed under 20 feet of rubble in an earthquake.

Adding to that, it's possible that Eywa protected the flute depending on how active you think Eywa is in Pandora.  Something as simple as letting the flute fall in the right place could have been enough to save it.

And finally, the ASG mentions the flute was kept high in the branches of Hometree.  I don't think it's a set in stone fact that all of Hometree burned.  Naturally damp areas, like rain forests, don't necessarily burn all that well.  Although I do think Hometree may have been in a relative clearing of sorts, but still, even then, the area was probably not all that dry.  If you look at the scene when Jake wakes up in the burned area, there's definitely plenty of growth left (much of it is covered in ash, of course).  In addition, the tree fell quickly, so the fire would have to burn a very long ways laterally along the tree if the flute was kept in the branches.

I don't think there's any way to definitively say the flute was destroyed or not.  It could even have been saved by an Omatikaya, in theory.  At this point I'd say it's open to interpretation.

[kintìomum]

I can't think of Hometree totally burning to ashes.
Reason 1.
Jake's Avatar is alive. If Hometree -which would make for a giant log of wood burned it would have produced enough heat to kill the Avatar. Ever been near a single burning log of wood? Damn hot my burn marks can tell you!
Reason 2.
The firebombs were targeted inside the tree. Sure, this is very likely causing a nice updraft like a chimney, but the heat would actually have to set something ablaze for the fire to be able to burn the mass of Hometree that fell.
Reason 3.
The firebombs set the groundlevel ablaze, but not the higher up. And these were the mass of Hometree that fell to the side. So there will surely be a large fire with everything that remained standing but the biggest part of it fell aside.
Reason 4.
Fresh wood. Hometree was alive until Quaritch decided to clear the place for the robodozers. And fresh wood doesn't even burn badly, it's pretty hard to set on fire at all since it's full of water and other plant juices.

[Toruk Makto]

I just remember the scene when Jake links in before finding Toruk. It's where he is talking about being in the place where the Eye does not see. The area in the distance looked pretty burned up. I thought that was where Kelutrel had stood. 

[Tsa'räni]

I just remember the scene when Jake links in before finding Toruk. It's where he is talking about being in the place where the Eye does not see. The area in the distance looked pretty burned up. I thought that was where Kelutrel had stood. 

It probably was, but how much of the tree was visible?  And could you tell the difference between something that was totally burned through, partially burned and ash covered, or just totally ash covered?  Definitely the growth around Jake was so ash covered you could almost mistake it for being totally burned if it weren't for the leafy shapes (which wouldn't exist if the particular plant had burned).

I'm sure a decent portion of Hometree burned or partly burned.  It was hollow and hollow things burn better than solids (air circulation to keep feeding the fires).  But if the flute was really kept pretty high up in the branches of Hometree, I've my doubts that the fires could have laterally obliterated everything to those distances.  Being in the branches could also more easily create a "safe" pocket for the flute after the tree fell.

I think you can probably make the argument for the flute either way.

[Rolyu]

Then again, it could have jut been a convenient shot to put in the movie to make the scene feel more desolate.

I would like to interject that most live, healthy trees that are receiving enough water are pretty fireproof.  Where I grew up, we had a lot of forest fires every year.  During droughts, or in areas where the trees were bleeding sap (a side effect of parasites and diseases) the fires would burn up large stretches of trees (of course) and everything else, and people would have to work for weeks to put it out.

In wetter years, however, the fires never get too big, because the bark of most of the trees is very fireproof when the trees are healthy.  Though the underbrush burns, all you see on these trees is some charred bark at the bottom.

Also, the bigger, denser trees are more fire resistant.  When the wood is dense and there's not a lot of air among the fibers, (like when I try lighting a big thick stump on fire, pretty unsuccessful... ) it's less likely to do more than scorch the outside.
Speaking of air, isn't Pandora mostly carbon dioxide?  Fire needs oxygen.  Big fires that burn big trees need horrendous amount of oxygen.  Its quite possible that the moisture and lack of air would put that fire out pretty quick.  Now that I think about it, it seems like fire is not a very effective way to take down that tree.... :/

I would say that home tree, being a large, healthy tree in a moist environment, probably burned more than what was natural (because of the types of fire used on it) but I don't think it would have burned all the way.

I bet the flute broke if anything.  But I bet even more that it's ok.  (but good luck finding it.)

[Toruk Makto]

 We must wait and see, I guess.   

[kintìomum]

Hometree is a giant even among pandoran giant trees.
When it's falling and the helicopters are moving out you can see roots on the stem of it that were pulled out of the earth and some that are still standing upright where the wood broke above ground.
I guess that when Jake runs back into the chaos to find Neytiri and her father he's somewhere close to the area that was the original entrance into the inner part of Hometree.
Now, when Neytiri sends him away he starts wandering (for a short time) and certainly is not as driven as he was when he searched for Neytiri.
So, the "place the eye does not see" might be the hole that the falling tree ripped into the ground with the burned remains of the still standing roots/stem parts. The mass of the stem might well be out of sight given the ash and limited angles we get on that scene... Some satellite pictures would be fine... will have to contact my friends at the RDA exploration corp.

Rolyu, you're right with Pandoras atmosphere containing much more carbon dioxide (18%) but it's got the same amount of oxygen. What's less in it is nitrogen. And since both have the same effect on fire there'll be no real difference.
What made Hometree fall was Newton. Quaritch targeted the supporting roots at the one side of the tree it was leaning on anyway -it didn't stand straight up at all, slightly to one side like having one beer to much- and Newton pulled... bastard!

[Tsa'räni]

Speaking of air, isn't Pandora mostly carbon dioxide?  Fire needs oxygen.  Big fires that burn big trees need horrendous amount of oxygen.

It contains 18% carbon dioxide (a ton compared to Earth)...I assume by volume.

[Rolyu]

But if there's the same amount of oxygen why to people suffocate?  I don't get the chemistry there...

But good point...
But remember what I said about the fireproof trees... eh?eh?

Quaritch and Newton are in cahoots.  Damn them.

[Toruk Makto]

Someone with more medical training than yours truly can probably explain it better, but as I understand it, it has to do with the partial pressures of the constituent gasses in the atmosphere. Nitrogen is essentially inert as far as human respiration goes (until you get it under higher pressure than ASL), but CO2 will trigger a choking response.


EDIT: Dammit, here I go running off topic again. And as a mod, I am supposed to set a good example! 

[Tsa'räni]

But if there's the same amount of oxygen why to people suffocate?  I don't get the chemistry there...

But good point...
But remember what I said about the fireproof trees... eh?eh?

Quaritch and Newton are in cahoots.  Damn them.

If you hold your breath long enough, you feel a strong inclination to breathe exhale.  This isn't due to lack of oxygen, but build up of carbon dioxide.  It's carbon dioxide levels in your body that matter.  So breathing in things like carbon dioxide (at 18%, ouch), hydrogen sulfide, and xenon aren't what you want to do.

Edit - Fixed terminology that might have been confusing.

[kintìomum]

Especially since xenon and hydrogen sulfide are highly toxic at (very) low concentrations... See wikipedia for details, I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment

[Rolyu]

Ooh..  I didn't realize that.  Makes more sense now.

You'd think that with the massive amount of trees on Pandora there would be more less carbon dioxide.  How does that balance?  Are they victims of global warming?

Bad joke....

I can't think of anything else creative to say about the flute though.

[kintìomum]

Flute? What flute?
Oh, I'm soo bad. What good I'm no moderator!

[Tsa'räni]

Ooh..  I didn't realize that.  Makes more sense now.

You'd think that with the massive amount of trees on Pandora there would be more less carbon dioxide.  How does that balance?  Are they victims of global warming?

Bad joke....

I can't think of anything else creative to say about the flute though.

Pandora has far more volcanic activity than Earth (tidal forces from planet/other moons).  Carbon dioxide is a main gas expelled from volcanic vents, which would probably be the main explanation for the high levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

[Tsu'roen]

In the movie you see that Hometree fell but stayed largely intact.

If it had stayed upright with the top blown up and the base on fire - that would have been a different story as the stem is hollow. In that case it would have created a chimney effect that indeed could have burned the whole tree to ashes.

But fallen as in the movie - I doubt it. As kintìomum says, fresh wood hardly burns at all.

There is of course the possibility that the tree sap of those giants contains oils and other fire accelerants like Eucalyptus trees

But the flute was supposed to be stored at the ground level if I remember that right from the ASG. So it would have been in the destruction zone.

I just remember the scene when Jake links in before finding Toruk. It's where he is talking about being in the place where the Eye does not see. The area in the distance looked pretty burned up. I thought that was where Kelutrel had stood. 

"in a place where the eye doesn't see" - I think that refers to him being an outcast and not welcome with the Omatikaya and the humans

[Tsa'räni]

Nah, the ASG says, "kept carefully within the limbs of Hometree".  I suppose you can interpret that various ways, but to me that says it's up where the branches diverge from the trunk, which is way up there.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Nah, the ASG says, "kept carefully within the limbs of Hometree".  I suppose you can interpret that various ways, but to me that says it's up where the branches diverge from the trunk, which is way up there.

Yeah--I just pulled out my ASG after patiently impatiently reading through every post. Remember one of the last orders daddy gave? (Something to the effect of) "(Go up in the tree and get your banshees and) attack them from above."

Now there was a lot of speculation earlier (this thread? Some other thread? I am so confused!) about what happened to them, BUT we know that some of them were flying out while the tree was falling. Before it fell, it shook and gave "indications that it would fall." What if some intelligent Na'vi, who just so happened to be, where was that....hold on a sec... got it:

"kept carefully within the limbs of Hometree". 

What if s/he had the common sense to rescue the flute. What's the first thing you do in a fire? Grab your stuff. You are supposed to run outside (and lie to your girlfriend that you heroically tried to save her rat-dog), but you grab your computer, your wallet, your Superbowl  trophy. Whatever crap you find priceless you go for first. I am guessing that it is not impossible that a Na'vi who was already "within the limbs of Hometree" could have grabbed it. Of course I never thought of this until I read the post about it being in the branches.

Thots?

[Tsa'räni]

Yeah, it's definitely not out of the question that someone managed to grab it.

I usually look at stuff like this in through the thought process of writing a novel.  So let's say you've come to the point where you have to decide what happened to the flute.  What options are there and can a reasonable argument (based on what we know) be made for each?  Any that you can make an argument for, without some kind of logic break, is a legitimate possibility to consider.

The flute...
burned - possible
was crushed/broken - possible
survived but was buried and lost - possible
survived through Eywa's protection - possible
survived but no evidence of Eywa intervening - possible
was grabbed by someone - possible

And so on.  Depending on how you look at it, no doubt some will say certain possibilities are more likely than another.  That's normal.  But as long as you can make a logical argument for it, the possibility exists for you to use without your readers/viewers going, "Huh?"