The possible effects of neural uplink

Zefanaya · February 27, 2010, 06:36:58 PM

I believe that while you are linked your human sleeps or inters a sleep like state as your consciousness is no longer present in the body, (which is why when they are forced out of a link the avatar body go's into an unconscious state) it is being relayed into the avatar mind so that you can control the body and not fell like you are in a some what third party felling, or some what disconnected, so as the human body is "sleeping" your mind is not, as stated by Rolyu our minds are very active while we sleep this is called REM which is needed for us to rest properly but from what I have been able to gather from my observations of people in link with their avatar, it appears to be a mix of REM and full active brain. In your sleep your normal consciousness is suppressed by your sub conscious which gives your normal consciousness a chance to rest and get ready to handle the tasks of a busy human day, while in Av state they would booth be going (all of this is a mix of speculation and my knowledge of the human brain) hope this helps.

Eywa ngahu ulte Eywa ayhawnu niwotx Na'via sì uniltìranyu.

tsamna · March 10, 2010, 09:47:56 PM

I have a question. If a avatar is left handed but the driver is right handed what would happen?

Mithcoriel · March 11, 2010, 07:57:19 AM

Quote from: tsamna on March 10, 2010, 09:47:56 PM
I have a question. If a avatar is left handed but the driver is right handed what would happen?

Well that depends on where in our body the "handedness" is located. As far as I know this is in the brain. So if you connect to your Avatar, you still have the same mind, so surely wether you're left-or righthanded would be transferred in as well.
I don't think an avatar can be left- or right-handed independantly of its driver. Just like the avatar can't have a different food taste from its driver.

Duma Vadamee {Aungia Tsawkeyä} · March 12, 2010, 11:22:18 AM

i herd a lot of famouse people are left handed. (i think leonardo de vinchi was one) and i herd that thoughs that halve a crooked pinky can be relly good artists.....iv got both

Zefanaya · March 16, 2010, 05:38:19 PM

Quote from: Mithcoriel on March 11, 2010, 07:57:19 AM
Quote from: tsamna on March 10, 2010, 09:47:56 PM
I have a question. If a avatar is left handed but the driver is right handed what would happen?

Well that depends on where in our body the "handedness" is located. As far as I know this is in the brain. So if you connect to your Avatar, you still have the same mind, so surely wether you're left-or righthanded would be transferred in as well.
I don't think an avatar can be left- or right-handed independantly of its driver. Just like the avatar can't have a different food taste from its driver.

Agreed, the mind controls the body so when your mind is linked to you avtr the avtr would then be you so therefore it would then be left handed.

Eywa ngahu.

Teyl Maktoyu Ayfìwopxä · March 20, 2010, 03:42:53 PM

Not sure if you wouldnt feel a itch when you wake up from your avatar body,
At the war scenes Norm gets hurt by a lost bullet, and wakes up from his body, he can hardly breath,
and is gasping for oxygen.

Mithcoriel · March 21, 2010, 05:21:08 PM

Yeah, but we don't know if that was physical or mental. Wether he was actually still feeling pain in his human body when he came out of the link, or if it was just the traumatic memory.

Zefanaya · March 31, 2010, 05:27:50 PM

Quote from: Mithcoriel on March 21, 2010, 05:21:08 PM
Yeah, but we don't know if that was physical or mental. Wether he was actually still feeling pain in his human body when he came out of the link, or if it was just the traumatic memory.

I think that because the link was severed so quickly the pain or thought of pain was still transferring to his mind (running through it) and that resulted in his reaction that we saw in the movie, and of course emotional pain can be transferred:

Quote
GRACE The troopers pursued them to the
schoolhouse. MACRO as she pours the milk -- her hand is SHAKING.
GRACE They killed Sylwanin in the doorway.
Right in front of Neytiri. Then shot the others.
(mildly) I got most of the kids out, before they shot me.
Jesus.
Yeah.
JAKE
GRACE
Jake realizes that Grace is on the verge of tears and desperately trying to hide it.
GRACE A scientist stays objective -- we can not
be ruled by emotion. But I poured ten years of my life into that school. They called me sa'atenuk. Mother.
(turning to him) That kind of pain reaches back through the link.
GRACE sits down at the table, looks intently at Jake.
GRACE It's a job. Learn what you can -- but
don't get attached.
68.
GRACE looks at him with real PAIN in her eyes.
GRACE It's not our world, Jake. And we can't
stop what's coming.

that was taken from the '07 script.

Mithcoriel · April 02, 2010, 01:36:06 PM

QuoteGRACE A scientist stays objective -- we can not
be ruled by emotion. But I poured ten years of my life into that school. They called me sa'atenuk. Mother.
(turning to him) That kind of pain reaches back through the link.

Yes, but isn't she talking about emotional pain there?

Being slightly poetic about it.

Zefanaya · April 02, 2010, 02:04:19 PM

Quote from: Mithcoriel on April 02, 2010, 01:36:06 PM
QuoteGRACE A scientist stays objective -- we can not
be ruled by emotion. But I poured ten years of my life into that school. They called me sa'atenuk. Mother.
(turning to him) That kind of pain reaches back through the link.

Yes, but isn't she talking about emotional pain there? Being slightly poetic about it.

I did say she was talking about emotional pain as all memories are sent back and stored in the drivers mind. I put it in because emotional pain is pain and can cause physical pain as the chemicals in your body and the neurons in your mind I firing uncontrollably, therefore interrupting normal body function (stomach aches, muscle spasms, depression, aches, and other pains, I know I have felt them). (I used the word pain to many times there).

Eywa ngahu

Mithcoriel · April 02, 2010, 05:06:32 PM

Sure. But I'm confused as to how that pain relates to Norm. I mean in his case, the Avatar was feeling physical pain. And we were talking about how that pain was transferred to his human body. (Wether the human body felt physical pain, or wether the memory of the physical pain hurt him, etc.)

So you're saying the physical pain in the avatar caused emotional pain that translated back through the link, which gave his human body physical pain?
(slightly wacky, but you know what I mean..)

Roiki · April 02, 2010, 06:47:54 PM

Pain is just a stimuli coming from neurons somewhere in your body and being registered in the brain, since avatar is just an empty husk and uses the operators brain, any stimuli from the avatar body is transferred to the user, since he is physically feeling the pain in his avatar body, and they use the same brain as his human body in all intents and purposes Norm was feeling fysical pain in his human body too, his neurons still going off when he came out of the link.

Like in the amp suit, it has feedback systems that push back when encountering an obstacle. You grab your rifle, even though the robot holds it you feel it too, when your arm touches a tree you feel it too despite having your human hand pushing against thin air.

Zefanaya · April 02, 2010, 09:42:38 PM

Quote from: Roiki on April 02, 2010, 06:47:54 PM
Pain is just a stimuli coming from neurons somewhere in your body and being registered in the brain, since avatar is just an empty husk and uses the operators brain, any stimuli from the avatar body is transferred to the user, since he is physically feeling the pain in his avatar body, and they use the same brain as his human body in all intents and purposes Norm was feeling fysical pain in his human body too, his neurons still going off when he came out of the link.

Like in the amp suit, it has feedback systems that push back when encountering an obstacle. You grab your rifle, even though the robot holds it you feel it too, when your arm touches a tree you feel it too despite having your human hand pushing against thin air.

Irayo, I do want to do some research on the link system but finding legit info is hard.

Tsuksìm atsawl (KaPTan) · April 02, 2010, 10:47:33 PM

Quote from: Tirey Hawnuyu on March 16, 2010, 05:38:19 PM
Quote from: Mithcoriel on March 11, 2010, 07:57:19 AM
Quote from: tsamna on March 10, 2010, 09:47:56 PM
I have a question. If a avatar is left handed but the driver is right handed what would happen?

Well that depends on where in our body the "handedness" is located. As far as I know this is in the brain. So if you connect to your Avatar, you still have the same mind, so surely wether you're left-or righthanded would be transferred in as well.
I don't think an avatar can be left- or right-handed independantly of its driver. Just like the avatar can't have a different food taste from its driver.

Agreed, the mind controls the body so when your mind is linked to you avtr the avtr would then be you so therefore it would then be left handed.

Eywa ngahu.

just went back and watched part of the movie (the part where they are making their escape from hells gate) and found that Jake in human form is Right handed for he is holding thegun in his right hand. being on high alert you want your gun at the ready, and so whould have it in his shooting hand. He uses his left hand for steading the gun. I believe that they just taught him to use his left hand. after all, 145 years from now, not that many people going to be shooting bows so he may not know better.
click attachment for pick. (edit) just realized that he also held his little wip thing (you know, the thing that he used to wip around the Ikran's mouth so it woulnd't chomp him) in his right hand. sorry its an edit, can't get that picture in.

Mithcoriel · April 03, 2010, 06:53:12 PM

Quote from: Roiki on April 02, 2010, 06:47:54 PMLike in the amp suit, it has feedback systems that push back when encountering an obstacle. You grab your rifle, even though the robot holds it you feel it too, when your arm touches a tree you feel it too despite having your human hand pushing against thin air.

The AMP suit gives sensory feedback? Where did you hear about that? I didn't see that on page 11 of the ASG.

Roiki · April 03, 2010, 07:18:23 PM

Quote from: Mithcoriel on April 03, 2010, 06:53:12 PM
Quote from: Roiki on April 02, 2010, 06:47:54 PMLike in the amp suit, it has feedback systems that push back when encountering an obstacle. You grab your rifle, even though the robot holds it you feel it too, when your arm touches a tree you feel it too despite having your human hand pushing against thin air.

The AMP suit gives sensory feedback? Where did you hear about that? I didn't see that on page 11 of the ASG.

Pandorapedia says that, and in the movie you can see that the hand devices are an obvious haptic interface, since the suit is designed to amplify normal human operations, it would be kind of counter-productive to build a robot mimicing human movements without giving the operator the ability to "feel" what the suit is doing. If you have to pick up possibly delicate things and can't feel them you have a high chance to crush what it is that you're picking up, same with feet, if you can't get feedback from the terrain you're on you can't properly take your next step. Like trying to walk or pick up something when you're feet/hands are all numb, it's not easy. Touch is after all one of the most important human senses, todays cars, planes etc give you force feedback one way or the other.

Tsuksìm atsawl (KaPTan) · April 04, 2010, 12:28:10 AM

yea, it would be near impossible to due things if you didn't have feedback. as Roiki said, Touch is one of the mos important senses.

Zefanaya · April 04, 2010, 07:05:52 PM

you abosoltly have to have sensory feed back in a device like the amp suit, if you didn't you would not know how much force to apply, walking would be hard as you could not fell the ground moving or the stability of it, and heaven for bid you get near something (brush against something) you could walk into a tree real easy. An AMP with no sensory would be like trying to drive a car with a Wii mote (and last time I checked shooting a gun with a Wii mote is not super easy).

EDIT: driving a car with a Wii mote was a bad analogy, it would be more like trying to put together or wire a car stereo or build a ship in a bottle with a wii mote pretty sure that is not easy (no I don't hate the Wii so Nintendo fans can calm down now).

Eywa ngahu

Ash · April 05, 2010, 04:35:08 PM

I also think that what Norm felt was the pain from his Avatar body being shot transferred partially back to his human body. When establishing the link for Jake the first time, there is the expression "phase lock", which as far as I know means different neurons simultaneously "working" on the same task. I would understand this as the driver's and the Avatar's brain having very similar signal activity, so if the Avatar's brain is receiving the signal for pain, the drivers brain will have the same stimuli. As we know of something as strong as "phantom pain" or "phantom limbs" it is to be expected that the driver would feel at least some aftershadow of the pain for some time.

Zefanaya · April 05, 2010, 06:20:50 PM

Quote from: Ash on April 05, 2010, 04:35:08 PM
I also think that what Norm felt was the pain from his Avatar body being shot transferred partially back to his human body. When establishing the link for Jake the first time, there is the expression "phase lock", which as far as I know means different neurons simultaneously "working" on the same task. I would understand this as the driver's and the Avatar's brain having very similar signal activity, so if the Avatar's brain is receiving the signal for pain, the drivers brain will have the same stimuli. As we know of something as strong as "phantom pain" or "phantom limbs" it is to be expected that the driver would feel at least some aftershadow of the pain for some time.

about phantom limbs, I read that solders that have had to have limbs removed will sometimes get an itch on let's say the little finger near the knuckle which is no longer their. Also any body wonder what the first links were like, Grace mentioned that (and could have been a joke) the links in the shack had glitches. What if when they were first using the links or testing them they got trapped in a feed back loop, that would be a bad day.

Eywa ngahu