The possible effects of neural uplink

[Lightna]

As is being currently mentioned in http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-customs-and-culture/navi-afterlife/135/ , people have been talking about the effects of the link between driver and Avatar. What sort of effects do you think could occurr?

[Meuia te Stxeli Tstew'itan]

A s***-load of side effects probably. Here's a nice one, why do you think a driver must not be in link for more than 16 hours in a row? Remember how bad Jake looked when he woke up after he first got at Kelutral. So as it might have some good points, there must also have bad ones.

[Coyote]

Here's one I was wondering-- if you, the human driver, eat a full meal before going into the link, will you remember to feed your Avatar, or will it transmit "hungry" back to you as a need? I was thinking that it would suck that someone neglected to feed their Avatar because they felt "full" back in the drive pod.

[Meuia te Stxeli Tstew'itan]

Here's one I was wondering-- if you, the human driver, eat a full meal before going into the link, will you remember to feed your Avatar, or will it transmit "hungry" back to you as a need? I was thinking that it would suck that someone neglected to feed their Avatar because they felt "full" back in the drive pod.

That's a nice one. I think that you would still feel hungry in your Avatar form. A hint to that is the name the Na'vi gave to the Avatar which is dream walker body. In your dreams, you are completely disconnected from your body. It work "by itself" in a semi-statis state. You can be hungry in your dreams even if you aren't in real life.

The way I see it is that the link pod would basically be a Lucid Dream Inducer. When you are in it, it feel just like having a lucid dream without the "god power". One day, I had a very powerful dream, very clear, in which I got split in two by a great-axe. Believe be, I woke up just as Norm did at the end of the movie and I was still feeling the awful pain.

[Tsa'räni]

Here's one I was wondering-- if you, the human driver, eat a full meal before going into the link, will you remember to feed your Avatar, or will it transmit "hungry" back to you as a need? I was thinking that it would suck that someone neglected to feed their Avatar because they felt "full" back in the drive pod.

It should.  The idea seems to be that your brain is receiving and interpreting all the signals sent from the Avatar body, which would include hunger.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

I believe that during the link the Avatar isn't aware of what the human body is feeling. That would be way too confusing for the driver who needs to be completely focused on what they're doing. Imagine if their human body got an itch! They'd be stuck in their Avatar body, unable to scratch it away! Talk about annoying. Still, if something really bad starts happening to their human body (like gas leaking in and sufficating you) the link is broken. So if the driver was on the brink of starvation, I think the link would be a lot more difficult to make.

Still, you're right. Jake looked awful after his first adventure to Hometree, something must get messed up if you've been linked up that long combined with the stress he must have went through.

[Ash]

That is a point I have been thinking about - during the last scenes, when Jakes tank is being damaged and the atmosphere is leaking in, he is shortly being disconnected - opens his eyes, gasps while you see the Avatar body going limp. So maybe it is some kind of security system that does wake up the driver when it detects a risk (like dropping of life-signs, poisonous substances getting in etc.) or it is some kind of instinctive reaction of the body.
But what I also did notice, the link only seems to be on kind of stand-bye, because Jake does hold his breath, shuts is eyes and the Avatar is up again - much shorter than the usual going-in-procedure I think.

Regarding the drivers looking messed up after long sessions or strong effort(or both) - maybe the there is some kind of feedback that can't be blocked completely? So the driver would find his body covered in sweat or on adrenaline hangover even though he lay very still, like sometimes you bring the feeling of being exhausted from a bad dream?

[Mithcoriel]

Here's a nice one, why do you think a driver must not be in link for more than 16 hours in a row?

Where does it say that?

Here's one I was wondering-- if you, the human driver, eat a full meal before going into the link, will you remember to feed your Avatar, or will it transmit "hungry" back to you as a need? I was thinking that it would suck that someone neglected to feed their Avatar because they felt "full" back in the drive pod.

I'll bet psychologically, you feel full, but physically, you're still getting the same input about being hungry. Maybe after being in the Avatar body for a few minutes, your body convinces you that you really are hungry even if your intellect first disagreed.

And remember, (though this isn't so visible in the movie, more in the extended script), Grace really had to force Jake to eat, and remind him to feed his human body too. Though that I would personally compare to some nerds who spend all day and night in front of the computer and forget to eat.

So maybe it is some kind of security system that does wake up the driver when it detects a risk (like dropping of life-signs, poisonous substances getting in etc.) or it is some kind of instinctive reaction of the body.

My guess is on the latter. That it's your own body who wakes up. I bet it's a lot like being in a dream, where you would also wake up in dangerous situations like that, but wouldn't feel an itch or something.
The only difference being it's more difficult to wake someone up who's in a link. Loud noises aren't enough.

But what I also did notice, the link only seems to be on kind of stand-bye, because Jake does hold his breath, shuts is eyes and the Avatar is up again - much shorter than the usual going-in-procedure I think.

Yeah. I kind of wonder wether, during those minutes, he was kind of in both bodies at once. Concentrating hard to see out his Na'vi eyes and move his Na'vi body, but maybe occasionally getting twitches and inputs from his human body, e.g. the sensation of running out of air.


Here's another question: When you fall asleep in Na'vi form and wake up in the link, do you return as soon as your Avatar closes his eyes? Or do you actually need the avatar to fall asleep first? (And if the latter: what if some skxawng next to your avatar is making noise and you can't fall asleep?)
That would sort of explain what I was adressing in some other thread about how, when Jake wakes up after falling asleep in hometree, he sees Grace shining a flashlight at him seemingly trying to wake him up. Maybe they could see on the monitor that Jake's avatar was beginning to fall asleep but not quite there yet, and figured they could speed up the process by waking Jake's human body up?

[Txantslusam Skxawng]

Here's a nice one, why do you think a driver must not be in link for more than 16 hours in a row?

Where does it say that?

Here's one I was wondering-- if you, the human driver, eat a full meal before going into the link, will you remember to feed your Avatar, or will it transmit "hungry" back to you as a need? I was thinking that it would suck that someone neglected to feed their Avatar because they felt "full" back in the drive pod.

I'll bet psychologically, you feel full, but physically, you're still getting the same input about being hungry. Maybe after being in the Avatar body for a few minutes, your body convinces you that you really are hungry even if your intellect first disagreed.

And remember, (though this isn't so visible in the movie, more in the extended script), Grace really had to force Jake to eat, and remind him to feed his human body too. Though that I would personally compare to some nerds who spend all day and night in front of the computer and forget to eat.

So maybe it is some kind of security system that does wake up the driver when it detects a risk (like dropping of life-signs, poisonous substances getting in etc.) or it is some kind of instinctive reaction of the body.

My guess is on the latter. That it's your own body who wakes up. I bet it's a lot like being in a dream, where you would also wake up in dangerous situations like that, but wouldn't feel an itch or something.
The only difference being it's more difficult to wake someone up who's in a link. Loud noises aren't enough.

But what I also did notice, the link only seems to be on kind of stand-bye, because Jake does hold his breath, shuts is eyes and the Avatar is up again - much shorter than the usual going-in-procedure I think.

Yeah. I kind of wonder wether, during those minutes, he was kind of in both bodies at once. Concentrating hard to see out his Na'vi eyes and move his Na'vi body, but maybe occasionally getting twitches and inputs from his human body, e.g. the sensation of running out of air.


Here's another question: When you fall asleep in Na'vi form and wake up in the link, do you return as soon as your Avatar closes his eyes? Or do you actually need the avatar to fall asleep first? (And if the latter: what if some skxawng next to your avatar is making noise and you can't fall asleep?)
That would sort of explain what I was adressing in some other thread about how, when Jake wakes up after falling asleep in hometree, he sees Grace shining a flashlight at him seemingly trying to wake him up. Maybe they could see on the monitor that Jake's avatar was beginning to fall asleep but not quite there yet, and figured they could speed up the process by waking Jake's human body up?

About that last thing, wouldnt the machine which he uses to control his Avatar need to get out of the euhh.. other machine ( remeber, its not site 26 ur talking about ) So Jake needs to wake up by himself or someone should have interrupted( did i spelled that correct) the link. And about the 16 hours of link time,maybe its in the ASG

[Meuia te Stxeli Tstew'itan]

Here's a nice one, why do you think a driver must not be in link for more than 16 hours in a row?

Where does it say that?

Actually, that was in the original script but I taken in into account that it was still like that because of the K.O. face Jake give us after his first complete day in the wild.

[Rolyu]

In your dreams, you are completely disconnected from your body.

I wouldn't say that.  I have had things in the real world affect my dreams, and I've seen outside stimuli affect other's dreams.  Take Ting Eywatikit'e.  She was staying the night at my house some years ago.  I was awake, she was fast asleep, so I started poking her face.  She didn't move or do anything entertaining, so I gave up.  She woke up a little while later, and told she had an annoying dream where big bugs were landing on her face.  LOL

I have had sounds, smells, and sensations all affect my dreams.  Once, I rolled over into my wall, and dreamt that I was having to share my bed with my brother, who was hogging the whole thing and wouldn't budge. (But it was my wall.)  I elbowed my "brother" and ended up bruising my arm on the wall instead, but it was definitely an interaction.  Stuff like that.

As far as side effects of the link up go, a very obvious one is that you can forget who you are.

[Ash]

[...]
As far as side effects of the link up go, a very obvious one is that you can forget who you are.

What does bring you to this assumption? If it is Jake commenting "I don't know who I am anymore" to his videolog, I'd really more understand that as his growing feeling of belonging to the Na'vi and his questioning where to put his loyalities.
If you conclude this from any other detail, I'd be really interested to know , as up to now I would not consider the link causing any stronger identity issues than a mild disorientation when you disconnect. (That is, with side effects being something that builds up and still lasts for increasing periods of time while you are not in the link chamber anymore) 

[Technowraith]

Remembering to eat is something that would confuse the heck outta me. I'm thinking that your avatar runs on it's own schedule for personal needs. When you link up, your avatar's "schedule" is what you run off of. When you're out of link, your own physical schedule is what you run off. Eating in link doesn't satisfy your own body's needs. Only that of your avatar's. Remember grace always having to force feed jake?

I wander what your mental state becomes over an extended period of time. Or what happens when your avatar is killed. To the first point, Norm said he had 520 hours of link time. It appears that his mental state is ok. So I'm guessing that as long as nothing bad happens to the avatar, link time, from a psychological point of view, is just like "switching personalities" in multiple personality disorder. But most of MPD's negative symptoms aren't there for the most part. I mean Norm seemed perfectly fine, mentally, until his avatar was killed. To the second point, the original 2007 script suggested some serious psychological repercussions when a cerain driver's avatar was killed. Avatar gives an incomplete look at what happens when your avatar dies. We don't know the final results yet. We don't know how Norm is doing, though we do see Norm toward the end of the film. So this answer will have to wait for the sequels or until more information comes out.

[Rolyu]

[...]
As far as side effects of the link up go, a very obvious one is that you can forget who you are.

What does bring you to this assumption? If it is Jake commenting "I don't know who I am anymore" to his videolog, I'd really more understand that as his growing feeling of belonging to the Na'vi and his questioning where to put his loyalities.
If you conclude this from any other detail, I'd be really interested to know , as up to now I would not consider the link causing any stronger identity issues than a mild disorientation when you disconnect. (That is, with side effects being something that builds up and still lasts for increasing periods of time while you are not in the link chamber anymore) 

Ah, you could be correct.  I was pulling this assumption out of a few different small things, one being that a major point of the VLog is partly there to keep the avatar drivers "sane" as Norm puts it.  Also, Jake is so caught up in the world of the Na'vi he doesn't take care of himself.  His actually body isn't important to him anymore, but his Avatar is.  He eventually even stops reporting to Quarich. Whatever the causes are, it is all related to him linking up with his Avatar and going out into Pandora on his own, without reinforcement from Grace or Norm that he is indeed a human and not a Na'vi.

I could be completely wrong but that was my observation.

[Coyote]

It occurs to me that Jake may not be a good representation of the average Avatar driver; not only has he not had the training (which, I presume, would include getting used to the concept of having two seperate bodies, and taking care of them both) but... he has very good reasons for not wanting to be in his real body.

When he first goes into the drivepod, he wakes up as an Avatar and the first thing he does is run on his brand-new legs. Then, when his session is over, they open the lid, he gets up and looks at his legs and his wheelchair with obvious disgust. Sam Worthington did an excellent job with that look, that sense of... "Oh. Back to this again," as he picked up his legs and had to maneuver himself back into his wheelchair.

He has every reason to enjoy the Avatar more than his real body.

[Ash]

[...]
As far as side effects of the link up go, a very obvious one is that you can forget who you are.

What does bring you to this assumption? If it is Jake commenting "I don't know who I am anymore" to his videolog, I'd really more understand that as his growing feeling of belonging to the Na'vi and his questioning where to put his loyalities.
If you conclude this from any other detail, I'd be really interested to know , as up to now I would not consider the link causing any stronger identity issues than a mild disorientation when you disconnect. (That is, with side effects being something that builds up and still lasts for increasing periods of time while you are not in the link chamber anymore) 

Ah, you could be correct.  I was pulling this assumption out of a few different small things, one being that a major point of the VLog is partly there to keep the avatar drivers "sane" as Norm puts it.  Also, Jake is so caught up in the world of the Na'vi he doesn't take care of himself.  His actually body isn't important to him anymore, but his Avatar is.  He eventually even stops reporting to Quarich. Whatever the causes are, it is all related to him linking up with his Avatar and going out into Pandora on his own, without reinforcement from Grace or Norm that he is indeed a human and not a Na'vi.

I could be completely wrong but that was my observation.

I think that does show how much of this does depend on interpretation 
Like, for Norm stating that it helps to keep sane, I understood that line in reference to being stuck on this "hellhole" of a planet in generel - not only for the Avatar drivers. Also that he stops reporting to Quaritch I would simply relate to him not wanting to give him more material for his campaign against the Na'vi when he actually does feel closer and closer to them.

Besides, what Coyote said(btw, I too think that was excellent acting - Sam Worthington showing in his understated way this look like the life is draining out of him at the thought of being back in his own damaged body) - I think Jake has a lot of reasons to prefer his Avatar, starting with the physical condition and ending with falling in love with Neytiri.

Just wanted to mention this: It's not to contradict you on purpose, it's just very interesting how different the conclusions are that we draw.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

...Take Ting Eywatikit'e.  She was staying the night at my house some years ago.  I was awake, she was fast asleep, so I started poking her face.  She didn't move or do anything entertaining, so I gave up.

LOL!!!         

I love it! You are so fun . . . evil! fun, er . . . BOTH!

Okay, so here is my question. If you are in an active dream state when you are with your Avatar and awake when you are not, how long can you go without YOU getting real sleep? It seems that being in Av mode might have some of the benefits of sleep for the body, but your mind would deteriorate, as it is always active. I think this is one of the major factors leading to Jake's wasting away (well, that and not eating). So I am wondering what a "normal schedule" would be during non-emergency situations for Av drivers. Let's say you wake up from a nice restful sleep. Okay, so you can log "x" number of driver hours and come back and be awake and eat and stuff. But then do you have to sleep, like a normal person, or do you have an "extended schedule"?

[Rolyu]

Our brains are actually very active when we sleep.  REM sleep is what we need the most to keep our minds stable, and regular sleep is needed to regenerate our skin, muscle tissue, and especially the optic nerves.  However, when Jake come's back from his Avatar, he goes to sleep while the Avatar sleeps, suggesting that the connection is not sleep like or dream like at all.

If he was deteriorating from lack of sleep, it would show a lot in the eyes.  The skin under your eyes will start melting off if you go long enough without sleep.  Scary yeah?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Our brains are actually very active when we sleep.  REM sleep is what we need the most to keep our minds stable, and regular sleep is needed to regenerate our skin, muscle tissue, and especially the optic nerves.  However, when Jake come's back from his Avatar, he goes to sleep while the Avatar sleeps, suggesting that the connection is not sleep like or dream like at all.

If he was deteriorating from lack of sleep, it would show a lot in the eyes.  The skin under your eyes will start melting off if you go long enough without sleep.  Scary yeah?

You are my kind of creepy/morbid.

[Rolyu]

A lot of people in my family struggle with Bi-polar disorder, Cyclothymia, and Insomia.
Luckily I'm not one of them.