NotW #16: wm.annis

Started by wm.annis, August 01, 2010, 07:44:21 PM

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wm.annis

Plumps hasn't closed down his thread yet, but since it is now after 0:00 UTC, I thought I'd get this in place.


Quote from: Question #1Who are you?
Many howdies!  I'm William, or "Will" if you want to ditch one syllable.  By day I'm a Unix sysadmin (i.e., professional computer geek), by night I turn into a crazed amateur linguist.  I currently live in beautiful Madison, WI, USA, but I've lived in Minnesota, Texas and California at various times in my life.  When I went to college I started out majoring in Chinese (focus on classical), but after many twisty paths, I ended up with a Bachelor of Science in psychology, a long and not very interesting story I won't go into here.

Quote from: Question #2Why are you here?
It's possible I'm the only person who saw Avatar just to hear an invented language in action.  I'd certainly heard about the film, but wasn't especially interested.  When the marketing carpet-bombing started and I saw some interviews with Frommer, Avatar suddenly had my attention.  I did a little work on the early versions of the Wikipedia article, and was following Na'vi language stuff all over the net.  When Fish created this forum, I joined fairly quickly.

For me, the great thing about the Na'vi language is that it has gotten all sorts of people who hated their school foreign language requirements really interested in language.  I'm happy to encourage such behavior.  :)

Quote from: Question #3Where do your alias and profile pic come from?
Well, I don't have an alias, just a shortened version of my real name.  Except in online games, where a little fun is in order, I live my online life attached to the rest of my life.

The critter in my profile picture (for now) is a mandrill, a cousin of the baboon.  Mandrills are the largest monkey in the world (gorillas are larger, but they're apes :) ).  I've always loved the over-the-top coloration of adult males, otherwise they're not very cuddly or attractive.  Mandrills and baboons have rather stressful and violent social lives, and zoo-keepers often consider mandrills more dangerous than animals most of us would would put first in the dangerous category, like the big cats.

Quote from: Question #4Srak nga tsun nìna'vi pivlltxe?
Srane, oe tsun pivlltxe nìNavi, slä pamrel sivi nì'ul.  I should probably hang out on Teamspeak more to fix that.  Trying to talk my way around gaps in my (or our) vocabulary drives me up a wall, which can keep me from trying to use the language more.

Quote from: Question #5What's you favorite Na'vi word? Did you incorporate it (or others) into your everyday vocab?
I'm not sure I really have a favorite word, but I do still love atxkxe for the cluster of ejectives.

Quote from: Question #6In your opinion, what are the top three user-created content on the LN website?
That's difficult, largely because I consider the forum itself the most valuable learning resource the site offers.  In the past I've been pretty involved in online learning communities for classical languages (Greek and Latin), and there again it wasn't the tools that helped people the most, but people helped people the most.

Other than the forum, I keep the Wiki open almost any time I'm dealing with Na'vi, usually to check up on examples of Frommer's exact words, but since I've put a lot of work into the vocabulary there, I have a fondness for it.

Quote from: Question #7Have you made any contributions to the LN community that you're particularly proud of?
The contribution I'm most proud of hasn't been released yet (soon!).  But I'm also proud of the work on the Lexical Expansion Project.

Quote from: Question #8What is it that you liked/hated the most about Avatar ?
I loved that the air of Pandora was almost always full of bugs.  I have a friend who did fieldwork in Africa (gorilla behavior), and she felt the bugs made for a very realistic film.  :)  Obviously, there are other things to like about the film, too, but I'm easily impressed by details.

I hate the whole Noble Savage thing the Na'vi have going on.  Cameron has admitted that he doesn't even believe that, but that it was useful for the story, which has made me somewhat less cranky about it.

Quote from: Question #9Has Avatar changed your life in any way?
Mostly I've gotten to meet a lot of interesting people I wouldn't have otherwise.  A message about Native rights and protecting our home (the earth, I mean) isn't new to me.

Quote from: Question #10If you could ask Frommer or Cameron three movie or language related questions what would they be?
1. (To Cameron): Dear Mr. Cameron, sir, please, I beg you, in the future do not use decorative apostrophes when you invent alien languages!
2. (To Frommer): In early interviews you said you came up with different sound palettes, one using tone, one using contrastive vowel length.  Did you keep those sketches around?  I'd love to see those.
3. (To Frommer): What language was the inspiration for the inferential evidential ‹ats›?

Quote from: Question #11What else do you do in you free time?
I garden (not very well).  I play various folk instruments (Irish flute, mandolin and tenor guitar, and now 5-string banjo in the clawhammer style).  I study dead languages, mostly Ancient Greek.  I have been known to invent languages of my own.  These days, I play Starcraft 2.

Quote from: Question #12Name your top three favorite Earth animals from most favorite to least. Why those? What's the animal you're most terrified of?
I like cats and grew up with them, but they make me sneeze.  I like all the cetaceans (whales, dolphins, etc.) because of the perversity of their evolution — mammals went through all the trouble to adapt to land, and they went back to sea.  I'm fairly fond of people.

I do not like bats at all, mostly because they're flying rabies vectors.  They're sort of cute, apart from the ghastly neurological virus.  On the other hand, I'd rather never run into a polar bear.

Quote from: Question #13Pirate, ninja, zombie, or robot?
Hmm.  None of these are terribly appealing options, but I'll go with ninja since they're supposed to be quiet.  That way I'd have an excuse to not say anything to vexing people.

An acquaintance of mine, irritated by the "Talk Like a Pirate Day" thing, thought there should be a "Talk Like a Ninja Day" when all you could say for a day was "..." and an occasional snick.  I like this idea a lot.

Quote from: Question #14What three items would you take to a desert island and why?
My iPad loaded up with every Greek book I could fit into it, a water purifier, and a big sheet of solar panels.

Quote from: Question #15If you could travel to anywhere in space and time (including fictional universes), where would you go and why?
I'd go back to ancient Alexandria, sneak into the great Library, and make off with all 10 books of Sappho's poetry.  Only scraps of her poetry have made it to us.  If I have time, there are a few other poets whose work I'd grab, too (Archilochus, Mimnermus, Hipponax).

Quote from: Question #16If you were granted one single wish what would it be?
To rewind, to roll back my life to, say 14 years old, but still know everything I've learned so far.  I can be stubborn and distracted, and the lessons of life have sometimes been learned too late for me to make the best use of them.

Quote from: Question #17What is a question you'd ask yourself? How would you answer it?
"Did you remember to take your allergy pill this morning?"  "Hell."

Quote from: Question #18True or false?

1) I once called the FBI to tell them someone had hacked their servers.
2) I speak Vietnamese pretty well.
3) I have never gotten a drivers license.

Quote from: Question #19: My Life is AVTRWhat is the funniest, weirdest, or most embarrassing Na'vi or Avatar related thing that has happened to you?
Nothing comes to mind.  None of my friends were really surprised to find me involved with a created language.


Quote from: Question #20: Bonus QuestionIf Prof. Frommer gave you the opportunity to create a Na'vi word what would it be? Give the Na'vi as well as English meaning. What associations do you connect with it?
Well, I invent languages, too.  If I'm feeling the need to concoct special vocabulary I can drop it into one of my own creations.

I'm pretty sure I've made one suggestion to Frommer about how to indicate the contrafactual (things that didn't actually happen, "I would have gone to the store, but it rained").  It involved the merging of past and future tense marking (‹aym›, say), which is common enough in Human languages.  But most of the time I try very hard not to make too many suggestions to Frommer about his own creation.

Taronyu

Woo! This is my most enjoyably NotW read so far, I think. Thanks annis. Good point about the other languages Frommer showed Cameron! And the bugs. Hmm.

Mandrills are no Bonobos, that's for sure.

As for your T/F, those are really hard. I am going to have to go with T, T, and false.

How many languages have you learned past conversationally? How many conlangs have you made? What is your favourite, now?

And isn't there some brilliant Greek playwright who we have nothing of? Why not grab him? Or the unpublished Comedies of Heraclitus? :P (joke)

wm.annis

Quote from: Taronyu on August 01, 2010, 08:07:42 PMHow many languages have you learned past conversationally?

Modern languages I have learned (at least a little) in the modern way: German, French, Mandarin Chinese, Japanese, Arabic (well, Modern Standard, not a regional dialect, but Arabic diglossia is a mess).

QuoteHow many conlangs have you made? What is your favourite, now?

Oh, gosh.  I have created so many.  Most of them never get past the sketch stage, for some failure to work out as I had hoped.  Unlike Tolkien, who constantly tweaked and updated a few languages, I tend to start over with something new if I don't like how things are going.  For example, one of my current projects, Bixwá, has a chain of ancestors going back 3 or 4 languages, only two of which got well documented.

I have a special affection for Vaior.  At one point several people were learning the language.  We even had a mailing list.  As a result of that, it is my most complete creation.

QuoteAnd isn't there some brilliant Greek playwright who we have nothing of? Why not grab him? Or the unpublished Comedies of Heraclitus? :P (joke)

Some professor once commented that, yes, the burning of the Library of Alexandria was a tragedy... but think about all the terrible stuff we don't have to read now.  ;) I can't bring myself to mourn the loss of yet another Neoplatonic commentary on Aristotle, for example.

okrìsti

As I indented to answer here more often, like the reading as well. :)
I hesitated on "iam" being one syllable, but apparently it is "jəm". :D
Ah, and I guess T/F/T.
dA | nga tsun oehu pivlltxe fa skype: c4duser
awngeyä wìki sìltsan lu
txopu lu fya'o ne vawma pa'o – nawma karyu Yotxa

Kayrìlien

QuoteQuote from: Question #11
What else do you do in you free time?

I garden (not very well).  I play various folk instruments (Irish flute, mandolin and tenor guitar, and now 5-string banjo in the clawhammer style).  I study dead languages, mostly Ancient Greek.  I have been known to invent languages of my own.  These days, I play Starcraft 2.

Win.

QuoteQuote from: Question #16
If you were granted one single wish what would it be?

To rewind, to roll back my life to, say 14 years old, but still know everything I've learned so far.  I can be stubborn and distracted, and the lessons of life have sometimes been learned too late for me to make the best use of them.

This is one of those things that I'm sure everyone has thought about at least once, and it's truly remarkable how many things you can look back upon and go, "Gee, how would I have done that differently had I known then what I know now?".  Good choice.

QuoteQuote from: Question #18
True or false?

1) I once called the FBI to tell them someone had hacked their servers.
2) I speak Vietnamese pretty well.
3) I have never gotten a drivers license.

I'm going to say T/F/T, because having #'s 2 and 3 in the other order would be too obvious.  :D

Congratulations!

Kayrìlien

Ftiafpi

I think prrton saw it partly because of the language, but I could be wrong. Or do you mean only person to see it ONLY because of the language? In that, you may be right.

I'm gonna say F/F/F or T/T/T, one of those.

'Oma Tirea

Congrats for being chosen, ma wm.linguist.annis.

Guessing (tricky, tricky...):

T/T/F (N/N/T)
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

SunTzu te tsamtseo

Congratulations for being the chosen NOTW ma wm.anis.

Quote from: wm.annis on August 01, 2010, 08:36:24 PM

Modern languages I have learned (at least a little) in the modern way: German, French, Mandarin Chinese, Japanese, Arabic (well, Modern Standard, not a regional dialect, but Arabic diglossia is a mess).
Since i don't see vietnamese in this list   8) , i try:

n/t/n
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Plumps

Sorry, that I didn't keep time in mind ;)

Great to see your answers – a fun read indeed and a lot to learn (as with every NotW so far).
Yeah, the classics ... interesting as it is, I could never bring myself to learn those. Latin was a pain, and Greek wasn't offered at my school.

I like your »speak like a ninja day« suggestion ;D that is so true!

Like your stand on my question. There is still so much potential in these infixes :) But you're right – it's his creation. But a bit of hypothesising is fun :D

Prrton

#9
Quote from: Ftiafpi on August 01, 2010, 10:19:16 PM
I think prrton saw it partly because of the language, but I could be wrong. Or do you mean only person to see it ONLY because of the language? In that, you may be right.
...

I'd have seen it anyway, even without the mesmerizing layer of texture that is lì'fya leNa'vi, so I think Tsmukan Wm. deserves the "ONLY for the language" ribbon.

This is all fascinating and Congratulations!, ma Wìlyìm!

I'm going to guess True/False/True. I have to believe that if you spoke Vietnamese, something would have rubbed off on me thus far and the only word I know of it is « phở » (and that's only because it's edible).  ;)

Now, some questions...

1) What most *challenges* (please interpret freely) you about Na'vi, the language itself? Is there some part of it that you'd prefer to see/hear work/sound differently?

2) What is it about Ancient Greek that is your muse? Has that quality been lost in Modern Greek by any chance?

3) What is the best thing about living in Madison? Is it your "final destination"?

wm.annis

Quote from: Kayrìlien on August 01, 2010, 09:04:40 PM
QuoteQuote from: Question #11
What else do you do in you free time?

I garden (not very well).  I play various folk instruments (Irish flute, mandolin and tenor guitar,

Win.

Do you also play the tenor guitar?  I wouldn't have expected that to get singled out.

I started out with mandolin for years (mostly Irish folk, but some other European stuff).  The problem with the mandolin is it has no sustain.  The only way to fake sustain is with tremolo, which makes me think of TV ads for spaghetti sauce no matter the type of music being played. :)  A tenor guitar and some slightly different strings gives me the same tuning with better sustain.

wm.annis

#11
Quote from: Prrton on August 02, 2010, 12:31:51 PM1) What most *challenges* (please interpret freely) you about Na'vi, the language itself? Is there some part of it that you'd prefer to see/hear work/sound differently?

There's nothing I'd change, I don't think.  What is really maddening to me right now is the question of transitivity, especially when it comes to basically transitive verbs without an overt object.  We've gotten advice that is, on the surface at least, somewhat contradictory.  So, clarity on that will remove some of my anxieties about producing Na'vi.

Quote2) What is is about Ancient Greek that is your muse? Has that quality been lost in Modern Greek by any chance?

Now, those are two giant questions.

I'm interested in too many things.  The excellent feature of the Classics (Greek and Latin) is that it has its fingers in so many subfields of study: linguistics (of course), archaeology, philosophy, anthropology, history, geology, even things like epidemiology might show up.  A few years ago I read a book on the Bronze Age Catastrophe that focused on metallurgy and the economics of using mercenaries to fight your wars for you.

Plus, there's something remarkably, well, modern about the ancient Greeks.  Now, I don't subscribe to this idea that we owe the modern world to the ancient Classical world (the book From Plato to NATO demolishes that set of ideas soundly), but as I once heard elsewhere, when we get to the culture of the Greeks, "for the first time in the ancient world, this is air we can breathe."  We can be misled by these similarities, and gloss over the many ways they can be pretty alien, but in general there is still much worth in understanding where they went first.

As for Modern Greek, it hasn't lost some quality — it is utterly crushed by shadows of the ancient world.  Contemporary Greek identity is bound up with the ancient world in difficult and puzzling ways, and I have to be careful what I say here, or you may be sure I'll get an earful from Greeks.

First, the Greeks were just an Indo-European invasion force coming down into what we now call Greece.  They conquered the Minoans, then came the Catastrophe I mentioned above.  We hear nothing from them for centuries, and then ἰδοὺ (voilà): Homer.  Out of flippin' nowhere, Homer, using a subtle literary language in a fiendishly strict meter.  And this was just the start — Homer, the lyric poets, choral poets, then some rather shaky prose leading to Herodotus and a bit later Thucydides.  Then the playwrights and the philosophers.  Greece turned into world power — and then it all fell apart.  Phillip of Macedonia, and his more famous son, Alexander, took independence from the Greek city states.  From that point on, Greek literature and culture became largely backwards-facing, in thrall to the accomplishments of their ancestors.

It is at Alexandria that all the works of the previous ages were collected, categorized and anthologized.  To understand poetry of this period requires you to understand everything that came before it.  I swear, some of these poets must have been in constant terror and frustration — how do you do your own thing when everyone will compare you to Homer or Pindar?  So, the literary arts became an exercise in erudition.  You practically had to be a scholar to understand a new poem.  It is this period of Greek poetry that influenced the Romans so much.  It's hard for me to get too excited about Horace when he seems to be largely a learned commentary on Sappho and Alcaeus.

In any case, from about the 2nd century BC until the middle of the 20th century, Greek literary culture took place mostly in a language no one had spoken natively for millennia.  It has only been in the last few decades that Modern Greek has been free to stand more or less on its own (a process that could take up books of discussion, so I'll pass).

Quote3) What is the best thing about living in Madison? Is it your "final destination"?

It probably is my final destination, though I have in the past packed up and moved across the country on very short notice.  I suppose that could happen again, but it would take a major change in my life.

Madison, of course, holds my closest friends.  But there are plenty of other great things about it — the lakes, the magnificent farmers' market, the disproportionate amount of culture that is brought here for the university, the many high-quality used bookstores, great restaurants (we're one of the sites of origin for the local food movement, to say nothing of the large number of students from all over the world bringing in new cuisines), I live well inside Madison but we have a local red tailed hawk keeping the local bunnies under control.

Prrton

Quote from: wm.annis on August 02, 2010, 05:29:24 PM
Quote from: Prrton on August 02, 2010, 12:31:51 PM1) What most *challenges* (please interpret freely) you about Na'vi, the language itself? Is there some part of it that you'd prefer to see/hear work/sound differently?

There's nothing I'd change, I don't think...

Quote2) What is is about Ancient Greek that is your muse? Has that quality been lost in Modern Greek by any chance?

Now, those are two giant questions...

Quote3) What is the best thing about living in Madison? Is it your "final destination"?

It probably is my final destination, though I have in the past packed up and moved across the country on very short notice...

Txantsan nì'aw nìtut!  ;D  Irayo!

Ftiafpi

hmmm, would nìtut be "continually"? I don't recall ever seeing it before. </hijack>

Prrton

Quote from: Ftiafpi on August 03, 2010, 07:21:34 AM
hmmm, would nìtut be "continually"? I don't recall ever seeing it before. </hijack>

<re-hijack> Sran. continually. I think it was in the ASG as «nìtut» before we ever heard about «Ngaru tut?». </hijack>

Taronyu

Quote from: Prrton on August 03, 2010, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on August 03, 2010, 07:21:34 AM
hmmm, would nìtut be "continually"? I don't recall ever seeing it before. </hijack>

<re-hijack> Sran. continually. I think it was in the ASG as «nìtut» before we ever heard about «Ngaru tut?». </hijack>

Truth.

Kayrìlien

Quote from: wm.annis on August 02, 2010, 04:50:20 PM
Quote from: Kayrìlien on August 01, 2010, 09:04:40 PM
QuoteQuote from: Question #11
What else do you do in you free time?

I garden (not very well).  I play various folk instruments (Irish flute, mandolin and tenor guitar,

Win.

Do you also play the tenor guitar?  I wouldn't have expected that to get singled out.

I started out with mandolin for years (mostly Irish folk, but some other European stuff).  The problem with the mandolin is it has no sustain.  The only way to fake sustain is with tremolo, which makes me think of TV ads for spaghetti sauce no matter the type of music being played. :)  A tenor guitar and some slightly different strings gives me the same tuning with better sustain.

I don't know if "play" is the correct word (I'm pretty bad at it). It mostly just caught my eye because I love the sound and it's not the most common thing in the world. I know what you mean about the mandolin, though...with the tremolo, it's either going to sound Italian or perhaps Greek (like the dance songs that just repeat themselves and speed up until you can't dance anymore) no matter what it is you're playing.

Kayrìlien

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Congratulations, William on being named NoTW!

I like very much how you have studied a number of different languages, more for fun than for some particular purpose. This is something I should have done more in the past, and will certainly do in the future.

I grew up not too far from Madison (Waupun), and have been in Madison many times. I know what you mean about local and ethnic foods. The only place I have seen more of this is is in Las Vegas, but the Madison foods are more unique. The biggest memory I have of Madison though, is spending time going through the various University libraries doing research for our debate team. What I learned about library science doing that has served me well my entire life.

And speaking of libraries, I would have read/saved the scientific/technical texts in the Library of Alexandria.

I am going to guess T/N/T.

We have Hymadryas and Yellow baboons at the zoo. For men especially, they can be dangerous to be around. The alpha male, 'Alfie' does not really care to have men about his troop, and will quickly get aggressive if you don't watch your body languages. But to women, he is a pure rudolph valentino.....  And you are right, they are quite dangerous. I would easily go in with our male lion Kenya before I would go in with Alfie (and that is true about many other animals as well.). That said, the baboons are probably the most interesting animal in the zoo to watch.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

wm.annis

Quote from: `Eylan Ayfalulukanä on August 03, 2010, 09:18:51 PMThe biggest memory I have of Madison though, is spending time going through the various University libraries doing research for our debate team.

Oh, my, yes.  The UW has a magnificent library system.

Lance R. Casey

Quote from: wm.annis on August 01, 2010, 07:44:21 PM
Quote from: Question #10If you could ask Frommer or Cameron three movie or language related questions what would they be?

1. (To Cameron): Dear Mr. Cameron, sir, please, I beg you, in the future do not use decorative apostrophes when you invent alien languages!

Oh hell yes -- and that goes for all you other folks in the fields of science fiction and fantasy, too! Tslolam srak?

Quote from: wm.annis on August 01, 2010, 07:44:21 PM
Quote from: Question #11What else do you do in you free time?

I garden (not very well).  I play various folk instruments (Irish flute, mandolin and tenor guitar, and now 5-string banjo in the clawhammer style).  I study dead languages, mostly Ancient
Greek.  I have been known to invent languages of my own.  These days, I play Starcraft 2.

Proof! ;D

Oh, and I too expect that you're pulling a fib with regard to that Asian tongue.

// Lance R. Casey