NotW #5: Hawnu UnilTxep

[Mako]

Gah! Look! She's back again! How many times is this in 1 week?

[kewnya txamew'itan]

By literature based on the bible, do you mean things that have close parallels to the bible (the lion, the witch and the wardrobe or the lord of the flies for example) or actual bible passages. If the former I can't see anything wrong with reading them, you may not agree with the author on their views about religion but, as I understand it, no-one would be asking you to.

As for allowing vigilantes, might that not plant the idea in people's minds that sometimes violence is ok and so reduce their inhibitions towards violence against someone who isn't necessarily a criminal?

Other than that, I'm pretty much there with you (the marijuana I'm not sure either way and the health care, well I don't know enough about the situation over in the states to decide what needs to be done about it).

No, it was like the author's adaptation of like the Christian Creation story.  Stuff like that. Ew.

It might, but... I think the good would greatly outweigh the harm.  They would have to be regulated, of course ;] But they're gonna do it anyway, might as well let these people who want to change the world, even just a little, do it with some legality.

Coyote: I'm glad you liked my ideas. Heehee.  And I am working on the workbook!! <3 thankies.

Answers: TFF... heehee.

1. So just like how the lion the witch and the wardrobe and the lord of the flies are both adaptions of the life of Jesus (the lord of the flies very loosely, but very much tLtWatW) then? Are you proposing that they shouldn't be allowed on the curriculum?

[Muzer]

Lord of the Flies isn't REALLY the story of Jesus - unless the story of Jesus is "the human race suck, we're all savages really, and we're going to die"

[kewnya txamew'itan]

No, but Simon's clearly a pretty close parallel to Jesus, his story is pretty much identical, it just so happens that there's other stuff going on as well.

[Muzer]

I still disagree.

Spoiler

Simon died before he could tell anyone his knowledge, Simon was ignored and/or misunderstood by everyone, Simon died for a completely different reason (frenzied mob vs greed and wealth and jealousy)

Yes, maybe Golding had Jesus in mind, but it's certainly very loose, and it could really be interpreted as being most prophet-like figures.

Anyway, some schools teach ancient Greek myths, not as fact but as just that - myths. The same should be true of the bible - by all means study it but not as the literal truth.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Fair point about simon being any prophet figure. It would probably be better for me to have described him as a messiah

Spoiler

(which is his role even if he doesn't get to fulfill it)[/desc]

[Coyote]

I always thought Lord of the Flies was the tale of mankind's duality, and the clash between civilization (seeking to improve) and barbarism (seeking to destroy). The Conch, for example, represents a tool for organization and democracy; when it is smashed, the civilized veneer crumbles quickly. The only reason a "Jesus" narrative gets pasted over it is because most Westerners are Christians, at least nominally, so they will "see" it there even if it is un-intentional. A sort of subconscious, retroactive overlay of meaning.

[Muzer]

I always thought Lord of the Flies was the tale of mankind's duality, and the clash between civilization (seeking to improve) and barbarism (seeking to destroy). The Conch, for example, represents a tool for organization and democracy; when it is smashed, the civilized veneer crumbles quickly. The only reason a "Jesus" narrative get pasted over it is because most Westerners are Christians, at least nominally, so they will "see" it there even if it is un-intentional. A sort of subconscious, retroactive overlay of meaning.

Exactly my thoughts. Though I do think there are some other meanings than civilisation vs barbarianism, I don't think Jesus (specifically) is one of them. The qualities of good leaders, the potential for evil, the inability to recognise "prophet-like" (wise) figures even (otherwise what's the point in Simon?) - but not specifically Jesus.

[Coyote]

Yeah, Muzer, I think it is easy to do so because (I'm guessing) but early social organization was probably based around some sort of rites & rituals, ie, a religion, and so any story that deals with people being people will attract that sort of interpretation.

And, of course, the interpretation will reflect whatever the dominant religious view is at the time. If Lord of the Flies had been told in ancient Scandinavia, they'd probably say it was a Regnarok tale between the valiancy of Odin and the undermining Loki. But again... my guess.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

I always thought Lord of the Flies was the tale of mankind's duality, and the clash between civilization (seeking to improve) and barbarism (seeking to destroy). The Conch, for example, represents a tool for organization and democracy; when it is smashed, the civilized veneer crumbles quickly. The only reason a "Jesus" narrative get pasted over it is because most Westerners are Christians, at least nominally, so they will "see" it there even if it is un-intentional. A sort of subconscious, retroactive overlay of meaning.

Exactly my thoughts. Though I do think there are some other meanings than civilisation vs barbarianism, I don't think Jesus (specifically) is one of them. The qualities of good leaders, the potential for evil, the inability to recognise "prophet-like" (wise) figures even (otherwise what's the point in Simon?) - but not specifically Jesus.

A fair point.

Although, whilst Simon fulfills the role of a prophet or messiah, I would argue that Golding made him specifically christ-like so that his audience (primarily western with at least a passing knowledge of christianity) would recognise his role.

My reasons for labelling him specifically as a christ-like figure rather than a generic prophet are as follows:
Before simon dies he is alone in his private place -> Jesus in the wilderness

In the private place/wilderness, Simon is tempted by the lord of the flies = Jesus tempted by the lord of the flies

Simon is killed by an angry mob -> Jesus indirectly killed by an angry mob who'd rather save barabbas (granted there isn't an obvious barabbas figure in LotF

There are lots of other links to his generic role, but I still think that Golding made him specifically christ-like to make this link to a generic prophet more obvious to his western audience.





Anyway, back on topic, I'll rephrase my question: hawnu uniltxep, you say you'd remove literature based on the bible in schools (I presume you are referring to state-run ones as opposed to private church ones), would this include works like the lion the witch and the wardrobe? If so, would it also include more tangentially christian or religious literature like the lord of the flies, where would you draw the line?

[Muzer]

what's with the empty "desc" tags?

[Hawnu UnilTxep]

No, not the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe [though I'm still not a fan] but stories with actual creation situations, dante's inferno, and stuff like that.  That's what I meant!! And yeah, just public schools.

Thanks for a great run :] <3