Clarifications and Announcements

Started by Vawmataw, January 13, 2023, 10:58:23 PM

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Vawmataw

Clarifications and Announcements
https://naviteri.org/2023/01/2653/
Posted on January 13, 2023 by Pawl

Gì, ma 'eylan!  🙂

The previous post on Reef Na'vi phonetics and phonology elicited some really perceptive questions in the comments section, so let me respond to those here. Then I'll mention a few other things you might be interested in.

FAQ about Reef Na'vi Phonetics and Phonology

Q: Do the phonetic rules of Reef Na'vi extend to the numeral prefix pxe-?
A: Yes! In RN, 'three guests' is befrrtu, 'three rivers' is behilvan, and 'three fires' is betep. (Do you see why it's not *bedep?)

Q: What happens to words like atxkxe or ekxtxu? Would they be changed into atxge and ekxdu, or would they become adge and egdu?
A: It's adge and egdu. This is an exception to the rule that the changes from ejectives to voiced stops only occur at the onset of a syllable. In these cases, when ejectives are in contact, the change in the second ejective influences a change in the first. It's an example of what linguists call "regressive assimilation," where a sound reaches backwards, so to speak, to influence a preceding sound.

Q: If a noun ends in an ejective (e.g., 'awkx), what happens if we append a case ending? Is the ejective reanalyzed to become the onset of the next syllable? So, is 'awkx + -ìl pronounced as 'aw-gìl or as 'awkx-ìl?
A: It's 'awgìl. You're right about the reanalysis.

Q: Is the glottal stop also lost between two words, e.g. oe 'ia, or does that rule only apply to glottal stops in a single word?
A: Only within a single word. Initial glottal stops are generally retained.

Q: We know that in FN, if a word has a closed syllable containing u, it can be pronounced [ u ] or [ ʊ ] (and apparently now, anywhere in between). But if u appears in an open syllable, like in tìfnu, it is always pronounced [ u ]. What is the situation for RN?
A: In RN, ù is perfectly possible in non-final open syllables. So for example, kxutu, the word for 'enemy' in FN, is gùtu in RN. (That's a word that will be on our list of FN-RN correspondences where RN has a ù.) In final open syllables, however, ù, although theoretically possible, is very rare. I doubt we'll be seeing examples of that. This situation is different from the i-ì contrast, where both vowels are frequently found in final position.

Q: Would RN speakers insert an optional tìftang in sequences where FN has identical vowels together like spono-o and zekwä-äo?
A: No. The tendency in RN is to smooth over the glottal stop, so they wouldn't go in the opposite direction and insert it.

Q: Would RN allow sequences of identical vowels to remain where FN cancels them, such as apxaa (apxa), meeveng (meveng), seii (seiyi)?
A: Given that RN speakers are used to hearing sequences of identical vowels, as in rää, you're right: forms like apxaameeveng, and seii remain as they are in RN.

Really great questions!

And now, two announcements:

First, I'll be giving a little online talk this Sunday, 15 January, as part of OmatiCon. It'll be about the Reef Na'vi dialect, with some additional exploration of dialects in general. There won't be much new about RN phonetics and phonology, but I'll also be previewing the morphological and syntactic differences between FN and RN, which I haven't yet gotten to here on the blog.

The talk will be at the following times (I hope I've gotten this right!):

US Pacific Time: 11:00 am
US Central Time: 1:00 pm
US Eastern Time: 2:00 pm
UK Time: 7:00 pm
European Continental Time: 8:00 pm

Here's a link you can use to join the Zoom meeting:

[redacted, please go to the blog]

Meeting ID: [redacted]
Passcode: [redacted]

Secondly, if you're not tired of articles about Na'vi where Pawl say things that have become too familiar to you, there's a new one you might like to take a look at. It's on Salon.com, an online magazine with quite a large readership. I think the author did a very nice job, and I'm quite pleased with how it turned out. As you'll see, the genre is one where the interviewer transcribes what the interviewee said almost verbatim. It's not polished prose, but it does give you a sense that someone is speaking spontaneously rather than reading prepared text.

Hayalovay!
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Toliman

Dantsan nìdan nìwotx :)

Lìu alu adge sì egdu eltur tìden si ;D

Vawmataw

#2
A few interesting comments...

First comment:
Quote from: Karyu Pawl
Quote from: PlumpsFuria tsaysìpawmur kangay si irayo ngaru nìtxan! || Thanks for addressing these!

Just for clarification though on the glottal stop/vowel front (I thought it was in the comments last time). We are including diphthongs in this rule as well, correct? So it's nìaw in RN. (btw. 'a'aw could get really weird 🙂)
Speaking of adjectives: you said initial glottal stop is usually retained but since the attributive a attaches to the adjective, it should disappear, right? In short, tute aipu or tute a'ipu for a 'humorous person'?

Ngeyä säftxulì'uri trray srefereiey nìprrte'!
Yes, the rule for glottal stops with vowels applies to diphthongs as well: nìaw is correct in RN.

Good point about 'a'aw! In a phrase like 'eylan a'a'aw 'several friends,' the rule would seem to imply that this could become *'eylan aaaw'! Weird indeed. That's where the "optional" part of the rule kicks in. In a case like this, RN speakers would not drop both glottal stops. The most likely pronunciation, I think, would be 'eylan aa'aw.

'Humorous person' would be tute aipu, since the original glottal stop is now between two different vowels and no longer initial.

Second comment:

Quote from: Karyu Pawl
Quote from: Eana UnilSì'eyngìri irayo nìtxan nìmun ma KP!

Another question just came up. -yu is productive for verbs, including si-verbs, and as far as we know, "...siyu" would be spoken as "...syu" in colloquial speech, kefyak.
Would LW turn that into "shu" as well?

Sorry if this question is redundant, I just want to make sure 😀
Good observation. Of course, -siyu doesn't have to turn into -syu in colloquial speech, but it can. When it does, you're right: it would be pronounced "shu" in RN. So, for example, tsamsiyu would come out as tsamshu. Hmm. Does that sound like a fiercer warrior than tsamsiyu or a less fierce one? I'm not sure! 😊

Third comment:
Quote from: Karyu Pawl
Quote from: ZángtsuvaDoes this mean that kxu was originally kxù and LW preserves the ù in derived forms like kxùtu but not in kxù itself? What about regular inflected forms like kxùl or kxùä?
"Does this mean that kxu was originally kxù and LW preserves the ù in derived forms like kxùtu but not in kxù itself?" That's a good hypothesis, but as far as we know, only for this one derived form. Kxùtu/Gùtu could be considered a "frozen" form that's a relic of the original kxù in the parent language. In other forms of the word, the original ù became u. So the inflected forms in RN that you mentioned have u, not ù.

[Edit 15 Jan.] Looking at this with "fresh eyes," as they say, I've changed my thinking on kxutu. Although "frozen forms" are certainly possible, the explanation for why gùtu appears alongside gu in LW seemed forced and implausible. So I changed the example to one in which the problem didn't occur. And it'll be gutu for 'enemy' in LW, not *gùtu. Irayo for bringing this my attention!
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Toliman


Blue Elf

I'm afraid it will result in confusion of tongues in Babylon
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Vawmataw

Quote from: Blue Elf on January 15, 2023, 09:03:19 AMI'm afraid it will result in confusion of tongues in Babylon
I think as a community we will have to keep the beginners a little bit away from the dialect(s) until they understand the rules of "Forest Na'vi". Otherwise, there will be confusion and more Bad'vi. We're about to know more differences in KP's presentation today, which means it will be even more important to understand how it works before going in.
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Traducteur francophone de Kelutral.org, dict-navi et Reykunyu

Toliman

Quote from: Vawmataw on January 15, 2023, 11:07:39 AM
Quote from: Blue Elf on January 15, 2023, 09:03:19 AMI'm afraid it will result in confusion of tongues in Babylon
I think as a community we will have to keep the beginners a little bit away from the dialect(s) until they understand the rules of "Forest Na'vi". Otherwise, there will be confusion and more Bad'vi. We're about to know more differences in KP's presentation today, which means it will be even more important to understand how it works before going in.
Fìu nìaw!

Ricardo

Did any of you watch the meeting? It repeated what has already been communicated in writing, but I found it interesting to hear how the pronunciation should be.

wm.annis

Quote from: Ricardo on January 16, 2023, 03:05:08 PMDid any of you watch the meeting? It repeated what has already been communicated in writing,

It repeated some things. A few other things were new (ä in unstressed syllables, the location of the topical).