Author Topic: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise  (Read 3087 times)

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Offline Unil Akawng

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Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« on: July 25, 2010, 06:59:58 am »
Kaltxì ayngar!

What follows is a text of the new listening comprehension exercise from Karyu Pawl's blog, transcribed to facilitate further analysis.


Here we've been been given a way to indicate a person's age: tute a solalew zìsìt aX = person of X years of age.

The exercise should also contain some new words, derived from the already known roots, but the only one I was able to spot - lì'upam(?) - can be attributed to my faulty understanding.

EDIT: Thought I might just as well squeeze in a few more pieces of amateurish analysis before our resident linguists arrive :)

Firstly, a noteworthy thing about Karyu Pawl's pronunciation is that the sequences of the identical consonants (or, at least, of "t"-s)  contract into one: i.e. nì'it teri is pronounced "nì'i teri" (other examples are ayvurit teri and uniltìrantokxit tarmok, where only a single "t" can be clearly heard).
Secondly, the "ftxey X, ftxey Y" construction is also new, AFAIK. Meaning "both X and Y", or, more literally, "[no matter] whether you select X or Y", it's remarkably similar to "хоть X, хоть Y" used in Russian. This appears to be old news.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2010, 01:15:29 am by Unil Akawng »
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Tsamsiyu92

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2010, 07:03:38 am »
Shouldn't it be tute a tsole'a zìzìt aX?

Offline Unil Akawng

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2010, 07:10:10 am »
Hmm... No, based on what I hear in the audio file, at least. There is clearly an "s" in the beginning not a "ts", and I've heard no glottal stop there.
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Tsamsiyu92

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2010, 07:25:49 am »
But I have proceeded/gone X years sounds quite odd to me.

Edit: sorry, Judging my posts below me, it seems correct...
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 07:44:11 am by Tsamsiyu92 »

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2010, 07:28:21 am »
Hmm... No, based on what I hear in the audio file, at least. There is clearly an "s" in the beginning not a "ts", and I've heard no glottal stop there.
Mllte. A person who has gone X years.
This gives further insight into the na'vi concept of time. It appears to be similar to our own; i.e. a line along which we travel.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 09:35:00 am by Carborundum »
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Offline Unil Akawng

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2010, 07:33:08 am »
A person who has gone X years.
This gives further insight into the na'vi concept of time.

That's what I was going to say :) Also, remember ft<awn>emkrr - "the past" is literally "the time [we have] passed by".
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2010, 09:29:20 am »
Secondly, the "ftxey X, ftxey Y" construction is also new, AFAIK. Meaning "both X and Y", or, more literally, "[no matter] whether you select X or Y", it's remarkably similar to "хоть X, хоть Y" used in Russian.

Actually we've seen this before, in his first blog post in the Na'vi section, sìlpey oe, awngeyä lì’fyaolo’ìri fìpìlok lìyevu pxan, ulte frapo—ftxey sngä’iyu ftxey tsulfätu—tsìyevun fìtsenge rivun ’uot lesar.

I see it more as the "whether... or..." construction, which better matches the verb meaning of this word, "choose."
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 09:33:00 am »
This is going to be fun. Haven't had the time to listen to it, yet - will do so in the car I think.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 10:14:55 am »
Ma Unil Akawng, you shouldn't write the adpositions attached to their nouns when the come before, so mì srey, mì numtseng, etc., not *mìsrey.

We've seen a final added to non-Na'vi names ending in certain sounds, to enforce rules about Na'vi syllables.  So, toktor Kìreysì for Dr. Grace (an s cannot end a syllable in Na'vi).  If I recall correctly it was Prrton who put to Frommer the question about what to do with that final ì when a foreign word takes case endings.  Does the prop vowel stay put or does it vanish?  It looks like it vanishes.  I hear toktor Kìreysä.

I'm going to take lìupam (word-sound) as meaning "accent" in the sense of speaking with an accent.

For *na ayfo, I think it's nìayfo like them, as they do, which parallels nìayoeng like us, as we do.  The pronunciation matches what he told us about mì, sì and nì- before the plural prefix ay+, namely that the ì elides.

Finally, it looks like the "dummy noun" pum has been extend from the original use with the genitive he told us about.  You can evidently use it to avoid repeating a noun with a different adjective.  Grammatically and semantically, that's not a big stretch.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 11:07:24 am »
Firstly, a noteworthy thing about Karyu Pawl's pronunciation is that the sequences of the identical consonants (or, at least, of "t"-s)  contract into one: i.e. nì'it teri is pronounced "nì'i teri" (other examples are ayvurit teri and uniltìrantokxit tarmok, where only a single "t" can be clearly heard).

First, tewti für your work – was thinking whether we should do the same as I did with the Trr ’Rrtayä message. Nice that somebody had the same idea ;)

I think the phenomenon of these t’s eliding into one has something to do with the unreleased t – the same would probably happen with p and k. t seems to be more frequent though. That’s why it’s standing out to our ears.

Tsamsiyu92

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2010, 11:11:46 am »
What's the point in that Na'viteri bot when the post it's about to tell us about is already posted about?

Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2010, 12:08:26 pm »
’evengan I find very intersting, personally. Never had that example before, hadn’t we?

Often I don’t know when being allowed to attach -an or -e other than where we know for sure. Otherwise I go for tutan or tuté

Tsamsiyu92

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2010, 12:11:45 pm »
’evengan I find very intersting, personally. Never had that example before, hadn’t we?

Often I don’t know when being allowed to attach -an or -e other than where we know for sure. Otherwise I go for tutan or tuté

Perhaps he wanted to emphazise that Txewì was a boy.

Offline Unil Akawng

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2010, 12:14:39 pm »
Ma Unil Akawng, you shouldn't write the adpositions attached to their nouns when the come before, so mì srey, mì numtseng, etc., not *mìsrey.
Sure, you are right! I've corrected these.

Does the prop vowel stay put or does it vanish?  It looks like it vanishes.  I hear toktor Kìreysä.
Actually, so do I, but when transcribing I've decided to trust the (currently known) rules, not my ears. :) Corrected.

For *na ayfo, I think it's nìayfo like them, as they do, which parallels nìayoeng like us, as we do.  The pronunciation matches what he told us about mì, sì and nì- before the plural prefix ay+, namely that the ì elides.
Ah, didn't know about this. It surely makes more sence than *na ayfo. Again, corrected.
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Offline Kä'eng

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2010, 01:55:12 pm »
ulte Txewìru peng
I think this is "ulte eviru peng"; I definitely hear a v, not a w.
Ma evi, ke'u ke lu prrte' to fwa sim tuteot ayawne.
Slä txo tuteo fmi 'ivampi ngat ro seng, fu nìfya'o, a 'eykefu ngati vä', tsakem ke lu sìltsan.
Tsaw lu ngeyä tokx! Kawtu ke tsun nìmuiä 'ivampi ngat txo ngal ke new tsakemit.
Ha kempe si nga? Nì'awve, nga plltxe san kehe. Tsakrr, ngal tsatsengti hum!

Offline Muzer

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2010, 03:40:31 pm »
nìkenong to me sounds like a lovely word for "for example". Nice! Having said that, it sounds to me more like "na kenong" - "like the example", which would make more sense.


Also, topical being used instead of the dative in "tsyokxìri ke lu zekwä atsìng ki amrr"? That's something I don't remember hearing about.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 03:47:06 pm by Muzer »
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[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2010, 04:13:17 pm »
nìkenong to me sounds like a lovely word for "for example". Nice! Having said that, it sounds to me more like "na kenong" - "like the example", which would make more sense.


Also, topical being used instead of the dative in "tsyokxìri ke lu zekwä atsìng ki amrr"? That's something I don't remember hearing about.
I think that might be a case of inalienable possession; "the hand's fingers are not four but five".
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 04:15:07 pm by Carborundum »
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Offline Muzer

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2010, 04:19:42 pm »
Ah, I never thought of it like that. That's quite a possibility. Or just "there are not 4 fingers of the hand, but 5" (lu with one argument, for lack of a better term, often translates as "there is")
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[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Offline Prrton

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2010, 11:11:22 pm »
nìkenong to me sounds like a lovely word for "for example". Nice! Having said that, it sounds to me more like "na kenong" - "like the example", which would make more sense.

The word is «natkenong» and means "for example/as an example". It is derived from «na.t(ì).kenong».

Offline Prrton

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Re: Na'viteri: a listening comprehension exercise
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2010, 11:19:12 pm »
Ma Unil Akawng, you shouldn't write the adpositions attached to their nouns when the come before, so mì srey, mì numtseng, etc., not *mìsrey.
...


Just double-checking my understanding, but the phrase that occurs in the recording is «mì sray», kefyak?

Does «mì *srey» actually mean anything in Na'vi? Have I missed a documented lexical item «tsrey»?

 

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