ISO Code!

Started by Taronyu, November 09, 2011, 05:57:55 PM

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Tsmuktengan

Because these languages have proofread literature available on the market, not just on the Internet.

We have some, but made for the Internet, for instance, and mostly in English. There isn't vocabulary for all sectors yet. These are two points to improve gradually.

SIL is being clear : what we need to do is continue our work of expanding Na'vi, continuing completing and improving the books and write and translate documents, books, songs and poems into Na'vi to build a progressive notoriety. This has been done for Quenya and Sindarin, that much older than Na'vi (Na'vi was 'born' in ending 2009 only, while Quenya and Sindarin were born at the beginning of the 1950's).

Na'vi is like a new born child that is extremely young but growing quickly, that changes month after month, and that evolves year after year. And we need to take care of that young language to make it grow. You cannot compare with Quenya, Sindarin or even Klingon. :)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Where would one find these published works in Quenya and Sindarin? As far as I know, they are restricted to Tolkien's writings, and maybe a few obscure fan publications.

One thing that could sped up the process of creating a published body of literature nìNa'vi without diluting the quality would be to write stories that accommodate the limitations of the vocabulary and the culture that the vocabulary arises from. I know some are doing this. But will we see anything more than a short story soon?

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Eltu Lefngap Makto

I think the point is there are publications.  We don't have anything in print.  For all the revolutionary nature of blogs, (forums,) movies and wiki's, there is still great weight given to ayfuk.  Fox's heel-draggin is weighing down, I daresay, more than anything else.  :'(
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Blue Elf

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 11, 2012, 01:50:54 PM
I think the point is there are publications.  We don't have anything in print.  For all the revolutionary nature of blogs, (forums,) movies and wiki's, there is still great weight given to ayfuk.  Fox's heel-draggin is weighing down, I daresay, more than anything else.  :'(
Yes, it seems that printed books are things which they counts. But how is book defined (how many pages, novel or collection of short stories?) and how much of them we need? I think one can make compilation of stories from nìNa'vi nì'aw (some are really wonderful), but it is still one book only. And who release it? I'm just starting to write some longer story, but it hardly will be enough for whole book.
I'm afraid that real books will not be available for a long time yet (if ever), although I'd buy some, if they're available
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 11, 2012, 01:50:54 PM
I think the point is there are publications.  We don't have anything in print.  For all the revolutionary nature of blogs, (forums,) movies and wiki's, there is still great weight given to ayfuk.  Fox's heel-draggin is weighing down, I daresay, more than anything else.  :'(

I diid mean 'in print' by 'published'. But your point is spot-on.

But why is Fox an impediment? As far as i know, the words of a language really can't be copyrighted. So, if Na'vi is used in a non Avatar context, there will be a lot less copyright concerns. Thus my comment that someone (it could be me, if I didn't work 25/8) write a story about a hunter-gatherer tribe other than the Na'vi, and taking place somwhere other than Pandora. Of course, you could not use Na'vi, but you could use na'vi. And you would need your own set of proper nouns, including a replacement for Eywa if that is important to the story.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Tsmuktengan

I see a very weak relation to Fox when it comes to the language. Na'vi isn't even copyrighted and you cannot take possession of an immaterial knowledge such as the Na'vi language. And I do not think the issue is here.


wm.annis

Quote from: Tsmuktengan on February 11, 2012, 03:54:54 PM
I see a very weak relation to Fox when it comes to the language. Na'vi isn't even copyrighted and you cannot take possession of an immaterial knowledge such as the Na'vi language.

Let me assure you, you do not want to test that.  Paramount has maintained — successfully — a very vigorous protection of Klingon.

In my opinion, give it a few more years (and movies), and try again.

Tsmuktengan

Quote from: wm.annis on February 11, 2012, 06:00:40 PM
Quote from: Tsmuktengan on February 11, 2012, 03:54:54 PM
I see a very weak relation to Fox when it comes to the language. Na'vi isn't even copyrighted and you cannot take possession of an immaterial knowledge such as the Na'vi language.

Let me assure you, you do not want to test that.  Paramount has maintained — successfully — a very vigorous protection of Klingon.

In my opinion, give it a few more years (and movies), and try again.

OK. What is the legal status of Na'vi then? Because there are already works that are being widely distributed on the net.

This would be ridiculous from Fox to apply such a model because this would kill the language. You don't pay a firm to express yourself and to develop a whole idea around a unique language. This would also make counter publicity for Fox.


Eltu Lefngap Makto

Fox is the same corp that killed Firefly.  They're not logical.

K.P. hinted at this when I emailed him.  I told him about the wiki I set up and he said, Good idea but I can't predict what Fox will do about it.  The undertone was, Be emotionally prepared to have it all get yanked someday ... maybe.  :-X
'Ivong, Na'vi!

Tsmuktengan

Quote from: Eltu Lefngap Makto on February 11, 2012, 06:55:45 PM
Fox is the same corp that killed Firefly.  They're not logical.

K.P. hinted at this when I emailed him.  I told him about the wiki I set up and he said, Good idea but I can't predict what Fox will do about it.  The undertone was, Be emotionally prepared to have it all get yanked someday ... maybe.  :-X

I won't die if they decide to license their language. They will only prove they apply an obsolete model that goes against innovation. This is all and I would go looking for something else while they will see a potential source of free durable publicity and of income die. I mean, following this logic, they should claim their rights over this then.  

We'll see how this turns out. But as a language, it should not be as evident as patenting a technique (fair-use).

For instance, the good practice is to quote the author "Paul Frommer" and the contractor "20th Century Fox" who financed this, in the interest of fairness. This has already been done for many projects. Also, the language has been able to continue to evolve up to now, and Frommer has not received any order to keep this confidential. If Fox really wanted to keep the development of the language secret, then everything we did would not be possible.

Currently there is no sign the development of the language would stop. It continues to grow increasingly. So as long as the interest of each party is balanced, there should be no issue with content published without any commercial purposes. For physical supports such as paper books, it absolutely necessary to ensure a clear authorization/agreement is passed with both Paul Frommer and it's contractor. This way it should be possible to see Na'vi literature published, for the good of the active community, the creator of the language, and the contractor.

There is one reason why Xelloss continues improving his book : he plans to publish it one day, and he will have to get the agreement of each implied party concerning the book's content. We will certainly have to remove all the artwork and images from Avatar for obvious reasons. This should not be impossible as long as clear terms are found and no harm is done to Fox.

So currently I do not think the language's expansion is limited yet. We haven't explored a quarter of the possibilities we have - with permission. And I prefer thinking the realistic yet positive way rather than being frightened by something that is not happening yet. Na'vi must have the chance to develop and offer new opportunities;


`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

#50
Klingon has been tightly controlled since day one. And although Klingon has been phenominally sucessful, it has been severely limited by the copyright issue. Or should I say, fear of copyright issue. Marc Okrand talked about this during his presentation at 'Linguists in Hollywood' last year. It remains a gray area to this day. But Tsmuktengan is correct (and Marc mentioned this) that no one has ever been able to copyright the *words* of a language.

But to this day, the only *official* way to get the Klingon dictionary is to buy it. There is no legitimate free download of the base dictionary anywhere (Extensions to the base dictionary are available, though).

I bet Fox has kept an eye on what is going on here. They may see things differently than Paramount. One price we may have to pay though (and the setup of the LEP refelects that) is that no one in the community can lay legitimate claim to a word for legal purposes, especially if it shows up in a movie or TV show. Thise of us lucky enough to see a word we suggested make it into a movie have to simply enjoy the fact that it did, and nothing more.

Because the community has been around as long as it has, if Fox were to try and kill it, they probably would not be very successful. There is enough information already out there 'in the wild' that Na'vi can continue to exist, and even grow if K. Pawl decides that he will support 'underground Na'vi'. It will essentially become almost like the plot of the film-- an underground resistance movement that developed within the ranks of the RDA. The other thing that may happen is that if Fox were to move in and try to quash Na'vi, that since it has been 'open' this long, the chances of the quash being sucessful in court are limited.

But woe to any community member that decides that they can break the 'gentleperson's agreement' we all have here not to do anything to endanger the future of the Na'vi language, like try to sell any Na'vi work that they have created without the proper permissions.

I wonder what Disney is going to allow for the Martian language that K. Pawl has created for 'John Carter on Mars'. Disney has historically had the worst legal department in this regard. The Atlantean language (created for the animated Disney film 'Atlantis')(another Marc Okrand language) doesn't appear to have been bothered up to now. But then again, it has never really gone anywhere, anyhow.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Taronyu

Huh. Way to contact me, SIL.

I would have thought the script of the largest grossing movie in all time would constitute a literature.

Hmm...

Tirea Aean

The amount of na'vi text in that script is minimal..  :(

Taronyu

So, I have nice friends.

One of them, when I mentioned rejection, did this for me:

http://multitree.org/codes/08n

:D

Plumps

'efu keftxo fwa fìfmawnit stawm...

Awnga var sìlpivey ko! ;)

Irtaviš Ačankif

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 14, 2012, 02:09:30 PM
The amount of na'vi text in that script is minimal..  :(
...and full of mistakes.

We should throw our poetry copyrights into a CC-BY-NC-ND licensing pool and then agree to have them all published in a book of "All the Na'vi Poems on Earth" that will get published on paper and go into bookstores - real ones! Plus we will have interlinear glosses of Na'vi written in three scripts (latin, 'eoio, famrel).  ;D Seriously, I'm going to work on such a project!
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Ftiafpi

Quote from: Plumps on February 15, 2012, 04:56:49 AM
'efu keftxo fwa fìfmawnit stawm...

Awnga var sìlpivey ko! ;)


HRH! (var sìlpey nìteng!)

Quote from: Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng on February 15, 2012, 06:10:09 AM
We should throw our poetry copyrights into a CC-BY-NC-ND licensing pool and then agree to have them all published in a book of "All the Na'vi Poems on Earth" that will get published on paper and go into bookstores - real ones! Plus we will have interlinear glosses of Na'vi written in three scripts (latin, 'eoio, famrel).  ;D Seriously, I'm going to work on such a project!

While it would take time to get all the people who wrote the poems in on this I fully support it and think we could do this. Copyrights become an issue with FOX but I think we could avoid this by leaving LearnNavi out of it (we can coordinate on here but not put LN.org on the published document except perhaps as "special thanks to" or something like that). It would also make sense to at least try to contact FOX about this in the event it did happen. Annoyingly, I can see FOX either ignoring this or claiming copyrights but that would be up to the author/publisher if he or she wanted to poke that bear or not.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Skxawng Makto on February 14, 2012, 03:00:03 PM
So, I have nice friends.

One of them, when I mentioned rejection, did this for me:

http://multitree.org/codes/08n

:D

Very interesting! I wonder if Dothraki can be added here as well, but right now, it has just a very small following, despite having been part of a widely seen TV series.

Did these folks come up with the 08n code? For some reason, it looks familiar.

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Irtaviš Ačankif

Well, did Hamlet in Klingon run in to copyright problems? I guess it is quite obvious that languages can't be copyrighted (think somebody running out claiming right for Esperanto - ridiculous?) or patented (Patent 4809217490275: Using -ti as a suffix - ridiculous). They probably can be trademarked, but -citing- trademarks is always legal as long as you put an ® after it and disclaim it as one of 20th Century Fox:

Kìyevame ulte Eywa® ngahu.  ;D ;D
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

`Eylan Ayfalulukanä

Quote from: Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng on February 15, 2012, 07:30:26 PM
Well, did Hamlet in Klingon run in to copyright problems? I guess it is quite obvious that languages can't be copyrighted (think somebody running out claiming right for Esperanto - ridiculous?) or patented (Patent 4809217490275: Using -ti as a suffix - ridiculous). They probably can be trademarked, but -citing- trademarks is always legal as long as you put an ® after it and disclaim it as one of 20th Century Fox:

Kìyevame ulte Eywa® ngahu.  ;D ;D

I'm not sure if Hamlet in Klingon ran into any problems during publishing. I will ask next summer at the Klingon Language Institute meeting if I am able to attend. The way our legal environment is starting to go here, I would be more worred about the copyright on Hamlet itself  :'(

BTW, I own Patent 4809217490275. Every time anyone here uses an -it, -t or -ti suffix on a noun, they owe me 10 cents!  :D

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]