Na'vi Language Writing Contest

[Carborundum]

Hìtxoa, ma 'eylan, but could you explain this a little more?  I'm confused.  I get why something like *Awngeyä tìtusaron yerikit flolä is not permissible—it needs to be something like Tolaron awngal yerikit a fì'u flolä.  But Awngeyä tìtusaron flolä seems fine to me.  We've seen gerunds take verbs before, haven't we?

Let's see if I got this well enough to explain it to the next guy.
First of all, the verb isn't the problem. Tìtusaron flolä is fine. Awngeyä on the other hand is a problem, because it acts as a subject to tìtusaron. A subject is an argument, so that's not OK.

[wm.annis]

First of all, the verb isn't the problem. Tìtusaron flolä is fine. Awngeyä on the other hand is a problem, because it acts as a subject to tìtusaron. A subject is an argument, so that's not OK.

Exactly!

I would only note that in giving English translation, gerunds really should be translated as X-ing forms, so, tìtusaron flolä hunting succeeded, not "the hunt..."

[Carborundum]

I would only note that in giving English translation, gerunds really should be translated as X-ing forms, so, tìtusaron flolä hunting succeeded, not "the hunt..."

*keytsyokx*
I knew that...

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

So then I take it that fmawn tìlusen nìwin (Kì'eyawn, you were correct!)  not because nìwin is an argument, but because fmawn is an argument?

[Carborundum]

So then I take it that fmawn tìlusen nìwin (Kì'eyawn, you were correct!)  not because nìwin is an argument, but because fmawn is an argument?

It's not correct because right now the sentence is noun noun adverb, with nothing explaining the relation between the nouns. As Kemaweyan said, the "happening" you want is an adjective, so you should use a participle rather than a gerund.

[Kì'eyawn]

First of all, the verb isn't the problem. Tìtusaron flolä is fine. Awngeyä on the other hand is a problem, because it acts as a subject to tìtusaron. A subject is an argument, so that's not OK.

Exactly!

Hmm...  Wait, so it's not okay to attach a genitive noun to a gerund?  I can't say something like *Torukä tìtswusayon lu win?

Granted, that's a really stupid example; there's no reason i would say that when i could just as easily say Toruk tswayon nìwin; i just couldn't think of a better example off the top of my head.

I think of nouns in the genitive case as adjectives...  Wait, can gerunds take adjectives, or is that considered an argument?  I think i just figured if they could get away with adverbs, then adjectives were okay too...  Maybe not?

[Kemaweyan]

I think gerund is a normal noun which means the process of some action, and it can attach any adjectives or other words (nouns or pronouns) in genitive. So I think the phrase Torukä tìtswusayon lu win is completely correct Toruk's flying is fast. Why not?

[Kì'eyawn]

I think gerund is a normal noun which means the process of some action, and it can attach any adjectives or other words (nouns or pronouns) in genitive. So I think the phrase Torukä tìtswusayon lu win is completely correct Toruk's flying is fast. Why not?

But if that phrase is fine, then i don't see why *Awngeyä tìtusaron flolä is incorrect.  Both phrases are largely identical.

Awngeyä tìtusaron flolä
Torukä tìtswusayon lu (win)
noun-GEN tì-v<us>erb1 verb2 (adj)

Kefyak?

[Kemaweyan]

Same here Oe mllte ngahu nìwotx

[Carborundum]

I think gerund is a normal noun which means the process of some action, and it can attach any adjectives or other words (nouns or pronouns) in genitive. So I think the phrase Torukä tìtswusayon lu win is completely correct Toruk's flying is fast. Why not?

Because in *torukä tìtswusayon, flying describes what toruk is doing in the same way as if we said toruk tswerayon. In both cases, toruk is the subject of flying.
(in the first case toruk could actually conceivably be considered an object rather than a subject, but the end result is the same)

[Kemaweyan]

Because in torukä tìtswusayon, flying describes what toruk is doing in the same way as if we said toruk tswerayon. In both cases, toruk is the subject of flying.

Yeah, but what does it change? We can understand what Toruk is flying (or was flying), but in this sentence the subject is the word flying and it has succeded.

[wm.annis]

Yeah, but what does it change? We can understand what Toruk is flying (or was flying), but in this sentence the subject is the word flying and it has succeded.

What it changes is that *torukä tìtswusayon is ungrammatical.  There are various ways to turn verbs into nouns so that we can shove them into the noun slot of other sentences.  Such as with a gerund, for example, tìtswusayon lu ngäzìk flying is difficult.  The other way to do this is to attach a phrase to fì'u with a.  If you want to include the subject or object in the verb phrase you're turning into a noun, you must use the a fì'u option in Na'vi.  The gerund is usable only for talking about the action alone, without subject or objects.

[Carborundum]

Because in torukä tìtswusayon, flying describes what toruk is doing in the same way as if we said toruk tswerayon. In both cases, toruk is the subject of flying.

Yeah, but what does it change? We can understand what Toruk is flying (or was flying), but in this sentence the subject is the word flying and it has succeded.

Gerunds cannot take subjects or objects. Even if the words themselves make sense when translated into English, the sentence is ungrammatical in Na'vi.

Take a look at this sentence: *Tsyeykä tìtswusayon torukä. It translates as Jake's flying of toruk, right? Except it is very clear from this example that Jake is doing something to toruk, i.e. Jake and toruk are arguments of flying, which is a gerund. Therefore, all sentences of this kind are illegal.

[Kì'eyawn]

Hmm...  Tam.  I can't speak for Kemaweyan, but at least for me i think the issue is i'm getting overly influenced by some of the things that English lets you do with gerunds.  I think i understand now.

[Kemaweyan]

Ok, I found this rule. Don't know why I forgot it..

['Oma Tirea]

And words like plltxetsenge? Words that are in use, but not official?

Please, no.  Only official words and grammar for this contest.

Does this include loanwords as well?

[Ftiafpi]

And words like plltxetsenge? Words that are in use, but not official?

Please, no.  Only official words and grammar for this contest.

Does this include loanwords as well?

I would make the assumption that loanwords are okay. Though, if I recall correctly, points are awarded for elegant circumlocution (where needed) so I would imagine that using a loan word, while not hurting you, doesn't get you anything either.

[Maweyatan]

So...What classifies as Beginner or Advanced Prose? If it's based on level of understanding of the language, then I'd be in Advanced, but I'd be in Beginner if it was based on writing skill. xD

[wm.annis]

So...What classifies as Beginner or Advanced Prose? If it's based on level of understanding of the language, then I'd be in Advanced, but I'd be in Beginner if it was based on writing skill. xD

Your best estimate of your ability in producing Na'vi. 

[wm.annis]

Only a few days left!

We need more beginners prose and advanced poetry!