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Offline bristrek

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Hufw-eyä tìrol
« on: September 06, 2011, 11:16:39 pm »
I KNOW this will probably be full of mistakes, but you have a go and then you learn. I only started looking into this a couple days ago. Umm, it's also not as good as I'd like but I'm not a poet so I hope you like.


Wind's Song | Hufw-eyä tìrol

Ayhufwel way si alìm aswotuti
tsa'u rusikx ulte ay-rìkit screw
tìwusyn ay-rel alìm asoaiati
'okrolit samop neto
kop sìpley ayoeng-eyä ay-vitray.

Hufwe ayoeng ke tse'a
ki tsa'u frakrr ayoengit kame.

I wondered if way should be w<iv>ay or not but I don't really understand that part of the Nutshell guide. Probably because I don't completely understand what a modal verb is, but if what I understand from wiki is right, then it probably shouldn't be there?

I think I read it right that when the plural doesn't form lentition there has to be a dash after it and thus ay-vitray for souls instead of ayvitray?

I had no idea how to say 'history long gone' and went for something that I hope comes across as 'history travelled away' and works?

Also, I have no idea how to do us/our/we and went for my best guess there.



ETA: I just realised, I've been doing this for hours, it's half five in the morning and I have to be up in a few hours. Eeep!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2011, 11:24:26 pm by bristrek »
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Offline Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2011, 12:25:43 am »
I KNOW this will probably be full of mistakes, but you have a go and then you learn. I only started looking into this a couple days ago. Umm, it's also not as good as I'd like but I'm not a poet so I hope you like.


Wind's Song | Hufw-eyä tìrol

Ayhufwel way si alìm aswotuti
tsa'u rusikx ulte ay-rìkit screw
tìwusyn ay-rel alìm asoaiati
'okrolit samop neto
kop sìpley ayoeng-eyä ay-vitray.

Hufwe ayoeng ke tse'a
ki tsa'u frakrr ayoengit kame.

I wondered if way should be w<iv>ay or not but I don't really understand that part of the Nutshell guide. Probably because I don't completely understand what a modal verb is, but if what I understand from wiki is right, then it probably shouldn't be there?

I think I read it right that when the plural doesn't form lentition there has to be a dash after it and thus ay-vitray for souls instead of ayvitray?

I had no idea how to say 'history long gone' and went for something that I hope comes across as 'history travelled away' and works?

Also, I have no idea how to do us/our/we and went for my best guess there.



ETA: I just realised, I've been doing this for hours, it's half five in the morning and I have to be up in a few hours. Eeep!


No, I don't think you need the subjunctive in "way" at the beginning.

No need for the dash, just stick the plural prefix on the word. Also no dashes when using the genetive case (-ä/-yä)

For our/we/us: if you want to include the person you're talking to then it's "ayoeng" or "awnga." If you're not including the person you're talking to then it's just "ayoe"

Now for corrections in the song:

Ayhufwel way si teri aswotuti a lìm
tsa'u A rusikx ulte ay-rìkit screw
wuseryn ay-relit soaiäti a lìm
'okrolit samop neto

kop sìlpey ayoeng-eyä ay-vitra.

Hufwe a ayoeng kawkrr ke tse'a
ki tsa'u Slä tsal frakrr ayoengit kayame.


I hope this all helps and that you can understand it. Others who are more advanced than me will most likely have other tweaks to my tweaks lol. But this is what I've come up with. If you have questions please don't hesitate to ask :)

-Txonä Rolyu





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Offline bristrek

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2011, 05:56:00 am »

No, I don't think you need the subjunctive in "way" at the beginning.

No need for the dash, just stick the plural prefix on the word. Also no dashes when using the genetive case (-ä/-yä)

For our/we/us: if you want to include the person you're talking to then it's "ayoeng" or "awnga." If you're not including the person you're talking to then it's just "ayoe"

Good to know! I didn't remember seeing the dashes used here, what I have seen and understood anyway, but they were in the examples on the Nutshell so I changed them to include them.

I got the inclusive/exclusive thing but.... you're saying there isn't an actual difference or our/we/us then? Other than to put the possessive suffix onto it or our?


Now for corrections in the song:

Ayhufwel way si teri aswotuti a lìm
I think the transitive/intransitive is going to be a bit of a thing or me, as it seems to be brought up in corrections a few times and I've never heard the phrases before looking into this language. And the case endings I thought had to be used because the wind was singing about this other thing and I'm only using the word order I am because I'm English but I know you can move it around so....


tsa'u A rusikx ulte ay-rìkit screw
I think I had the <us> thing because I was trying to say 'it moves' not 'it move' but if it comes off as moving then that'd be wrong, oops. Out of curiosity, if I'd put in a comma or a full stop at the end of the first line would tsa'u or tsal then be included?

That was a typo, I do that a fair bit in my own language too - I spot it later on when I look it over but not always and sometimes too late. I swear, I was painting out this birthday card for my dad and was staring at it and it wasn't until my mom came home out that she pointed out I'd forgotten the 'h'. Which is absurd because I know how to spell birthday and yet.... I swear, my brain some days.

wuseryn ay-relit soaiäti a lìm
Hmmm, I thought as it was painting then the -ing would come from the tì-<us> stuff and I forgot about the tense infixes doing that and the transitive/intransitive thing but I'll pay closer attention to the notes in the dictionary. As an aside, does the (ii) next to yomtìng show that it's a combo verb?


'okrolit samop neto
Again, this was a thing of me thinking 'oooo, word order not English, history is the thing that's travelled away so should say that' but I guess not. This, I think, will be a bit of a problem or me.

kop sìlpey ayoeng-eyä ay-vitra.
Oooo, okay. I was wondering, there was an entry that said hope, not sure what sìlpey means then. But tìkan sounds good, and actually going back I'd change it to more than one, because it's different or each person, and so plural it and get aysìkan or sìkan right?

So it'd be kop sìkan ayoengeyä ayvitrayä

Hufwe a ayoeng kawkrr ke tse'a
In which case, would we take the 'ke' out lest we get a double negative? Which is pretty common in English but people know what you mean anyway because they're almost idioms. But yeah, 'kawkrr' sounds better and I'm not sure why I didn't do that. My excuse is this was done in the early hours of the morning.


ki tsa'u Slä tsal frakrr ayoengit kayame.
Gotcha on the slä thing, that does work better. And I wasn't too sure on the tsa'u, tsal, tsaw, tsal.... other combo things and then there was mention of fì'u and I got a tad confused. Good point with the tense thing, I was using the 'will always see us' meant to imply that it has always seen us too but that may be something only in my head and the tense thing works.



I hope this all helps and that you can understand it. Others who are more advanced than me will most likely have other tweaks to my tweaks lol. But this is what I've come up with. If you have questions please don't hesitate to ask :)

-Txonä Rolyu


I think it does! Some of it I'll probably make mistakes on again and will be a matter of learning where I need to change the boarders of ideas in my head to get the right picture of what goes on. I have a far better idea than I did before last night though, thanks to you, so irayo!

A thing though, I had a post where I was trying to say that a dog (ended up as viper wolf) ate my homework (ended up as learning book) and the use of 'a' there was different to how you seem to have used it here. I've seen it other places too, some where the 'a' is attached as a prefix to the word, and some where it's it's own helper word. I did have a few 'a' on here the first time round, can't remember why I got rid of them, and I used them as a prefix and suffix because that's how they were using them in that other thread. The one I kept you turned into a helper word so... I'm wondering what's going on there? Is there a rule for when it appears which way?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 06:03:59 am by bristrek »
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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2011, 06:50:07 am »
Ayhufwel way si teri aswotuti a lìm

Two things to note:
1. Way si is specifically to "sing a way", which refers uniquely to ancient or ceremonial songs. If this is not appropriate in the context, use rol instead.
2. Swotu means "sacred place", which may not be what you want. The general word for "place" is tseng(e) (final vowel optional).

tsa'u A rusikx ulte ay-rìkit screw

But are we really talking about the "place"? "It moves and the leaves dance" seems to me to describe "the wind". If so, exchange A for Tsa'u or Tsaw (variant forms).

wuseryn ay-relit soaiäti a lìm

"Painting" is here used to introduce a description of a previous action. For example, a simpler phrase like "He cried out, saying 'Ouch!'" can be recast as "He cried out and [in so doing] said 'Ouch!'". But which is the action? Is it "it [the wind] moves" or "the leaves dance"? If it's the former, I'd say tsal weyn ayrelit soaiä a lìm, or sal weyn ... in case of a plural subject ("the leaves"). Another possibility is to emphasize the concurrent aspect, depending on whether such was intended, and instead use the conjunction tengkrr, which occurs together with the ‹er› infix: tengkrr wereyn ayrelit soaiä a lìm.

'okrolit samop neto

I think we're still describing the previous action, whichever it was, so unless I'm getting the meaning wrong we need to tie this back to ayrel. Also, we have seen both ftem and salew being used in reference to time passing by, so: 'okrolä a ftolem neto or 'okrolä a solalew neto (perfective aspect to indicate a completed event).

kop sìlpey ayoeng-eyä ay-vitra.

Still referring back to the images being painted: sì tìkanä/sìkanä ayoengeyä ayvitrayä. Tìsìlpey is an educated guess for "hope" as a noun, but since it has not been confirmed as such we can recast if we want to keep "hope" in there: sì ayuä a sari sìlpey ayoengeyä ayvitra (topic in the subordinate clause because sìlpey is intransitive, and because we need an anchor that refers back to ayu).

Hufwe a ayoeng kawkrr ke tse'a

I don't think this was meant to be a relative construction, but rather an example of a freer word order: "The wind: we never see it". Then: Hufwet ayoengal kawkrr ke tse'a.

ki tsa'u Slä tsal frakrr ayoengit kayame.

Ayoeng is a contracted form of *ayoenga, and the elided vowel reappears when affixes are added, so it's ayoengat.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2011, 06:52:22 am »
Here's my translation of your English version of the text (prefixes, suffixes and infixes marked):

Ay-hufwe rol teri tseng a mìso
tsaw rikx ulte ay-rìk srew
w<awn>eyna ay-rel soaiä alìm
'okrol k<ol>ä neto
sì tìsìlpey ayoe-yä ay-vitrayä

Ayoe-l ke ts<ay>e'a hufwe-t kawkrr
slä tsa-l k<ay>ame ayoe-t frakrr

Of course, more different translations are possible, usually there's no the only way. For example, I used exclusive form of pronouns unlike of Txonä Rolyu.
And: Slä tsal frakrr ayoengat kayame
Inclusive pronouns ends with -ng what is shortened form of nga. But when adding case marking, missing -a must be added.
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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2011, 08:08:38 am »
maybe the final version can be copied over to /pamtseo-ninavi-niaw ? :D

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Offline bristrek

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2011, 09:27:08 am »
I'd love to post the final version there!

Okay, so with corrections from various people put in, I get this:

Hufweyä tìrol

Ayhufwe rol teri swotu a lìm | The winds sings of a distant (sacred) place
tsaw rikx ulte ayrik srew | it moves and the leaves dance
sal wereyn ayrelit soaiä a lìm  | they paint pictures of a distant family
zererok 'okrolä a solalew neto | recalling history passed away
si tsìpley ayoengeyä ayvitrayä | and the hope of our souls
OR
sì ayuä a sari sìpley ayoengeyä ayvitra | (and the hope of our souls and something else)



Hufwet ayoengal kawkrr ke tse'a | The wind we never see
slä tsal frakrr ayoengat kayame. | but it will always See us.


The last line of the first verse is confusing me. Two people are saying one thing, another is saying something else and I'm not exactly sure what the second version means? I'm not sure what the sari is for, or why the ayuä is there to be honest. Though I think that at least means things' as in things' soul but that doesn't make sense to me. The a means one of them is a adjective, I think, and it isn't ayuä so it'd be sari but I don't know what it is. Is it is in 'useful things' as in our souls are useful things? I ask cause dictionary has 'sar' down as use.

Ooo, and I was thinking, is it possible to write it as 'slä tsal ayoengat frakrr kayame'? Though as I don't think I can move the 'ke' beore the 'kawkrr' (I don't think) it probably doesn't matter but that'd be a nice emphasis on the parallel.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 11:13:33 am by bristrek »
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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2011, 09:48:55 am »
first - be careful while writing, do not mix i and ì, si and sì is very different.
sì tìsìlpey ayoengeyä ayvitrayä

ayuä = ay+ 'u-ä - plural of 'u (thing) with genitive. Ay+ causes lenition, so result is ayuä (for 'u we can't use short plural).
sari = ay+ tsa-ri - plural of tsa with topical. Again, ay+ lenites, so result can be aysari or sari. Second option is more common (short plural), I think.
Ke must be always placed directly before verb.

hope this helps
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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 09:53:41 am »
first - be careful while writing, do not mix i and ì, si and sì is very different.
sì tìsìlpey ayoengeyä ayvitrayä

ayuä = ay+ 'u-ä - plural of 'u (thing) with genitive. Ay+ causes lenition, so result is ayuä (for 'u we can't use short plural).
sari = ay+ tsa-ri - plural of tsa with topical. Again, ay+ lenites, so result can be aysari or sari. Second option is more common (short plural), I think.
Ke must be always placed directly before verb.

hope this helps

In other words:

ayuä = their (referring to objects, not people possessing something)

sari = as for those (things),


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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 10:03:41 am »
Ayhufwe rol teri swotu a lìm | The wind sings of a distant (sacred) place

If it's to be ayhufwe, it's "winds". Typo?

tsaw rikx ulte ayrik srew | it moves and the leaves dance

Ayrìk -- remember the accent.

sal wereyn ayrelit soaiä a lìm  | they paint pictures of a distant family

Note that by including ‹er› you're presenting the "picture painting" as an ongoing event with internal structure.

zererok 'okrolä a solalew neto | recalling history passed away

Is "recalling" supposed to refer back to "pictures" or "they"? In either case zererok as such does not work (see previous reply), and since "history" is now the direct object of "recall" the correct case for 'okrol is 'okrolit (or 'okrolti if you prefer).

si tsìpley ayoengeyä ayvitrayä | and the hope of our souls
OR
sì ayuä a sari sìpley ayoengeyä ayvitra | (and the hope of our souls and something else)

Is the "hope of our souls" also being "recalled"? Then the head word also needs to be in the accusative, or patientive, case: sì tìsìlpeyit ayoengeyä ayvitrayä. For the second alternative, see below.

The last line of the first verse is confusing me. Two people are saying one thing, another is saying something else and I'm not exactly sure what the second version means? I'm not sure what the sari is for, or why the ayuä is there to be honest. Though I think that at least means things' as in things' soul but that doesn't make sense to me. The a means one of them is a adjective, I think, and it isn't ayuä so it'd be sari but I don't know what it is. Is it is in 'useful things' as in our souls are useful things? I ask cause dictionary has 'sar' down as use.

Word for word, it breaks down thus:

sì ayuä a sari sìlpey ayoengeyä ayvitra
and PL-thing-GEN that they-TOP hope we.INCL-GEN PL-soul
and of things that with regard to them hope our souls
and of things which our souls hope

Sari is ay+tsaw-ri and represents a topicalized inanimate "they". What this means is that it sets the context for the rest of the clause: "as for them, our souls hope". This is necessary because sìlpey is intransitive, so the topic is needed to convey what the hoping is all about. As for the structure, this is how Na'vi subordinate clauses work: only subjects and direct objects can be omitted from them if they are understood from context, and everything else must be stated explicitly. So:

   Oel tse'a 'ut a oel new
   I see the thing which I want

   Oel tse'a 'ut a new
   I see the thing which I want

   Oel tse'a tsenget a tsamì kelku si
   I see the place where I live (lit. "I see the place that I live in it" or "I see the I-live-in-it place")

Ooo, and I was thinking, is it possible to write it as 'slä tsal ayoengat frakrr kayame'? Though as I don't think I can move the 'ke' beore the 'kawkrr' (I don't think) it probably doesn't matter but that'd be a nice emphasis on the parallel.

Correct on both counts. Ke must be placed immediately before the verb, but the rest of the words you can move around as you like.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 10:27:20 am »
There were some questions further back as well that I thought I'd try to answer:

I got the inclusive/exclusive thing but.... you're saying there isn't an actual difference or our/we/us then? Other than to put the possessive suffix onto it or our?
Yes, there is: it's what the cases are all about. NiaN or this thread should sort the terms out.

Oooo, okay. I was wondering, there was an entry that said hope, not sure what sìlpey means then. But tìkan sounds good, and actually going back I'd change it to more than one, because it's different or each person, and so plural it and get aysìkan or sìkan right?
Sìlpey means "hope", but as a verb, not a noun. Aysìkan or sìkan is up to you, but the latter is more common.

In which case, would we take the 'ke' out lest we get a double negative? Which is pretty common in English but people know what you mean anyway because they're almost idioms.
On the contrary: Na'vi requires a double negative in this way. More precisely, ke cannot be omitted in situations like these.

A thing though, I had a post where I was trying to say that a dog (ended up as viper wolf) ate my homework (ended up as learning book) and the use of 'a' there was different to how you seem to have used it here. I've seen it other places too, some where the 'a' is attached as a prefix to the word, and some where it's it's own helper word. I did have a few 'a' on here the first time round, can't remember why I got rid of them, and I used them as a prefix and suffix because that's how they were using them in that other thread. The one I kept you turned into a helper word so... I'm wondering what's going on there? Is there a rule for when it appears which way?
Yes, there is, even though it is on a basic level the same thing in both cases. Consider:

   Oel tse'a utralit
   I see a tree

   Oel tse'a utralit atsawl
   I see a large tree

   Utral lu tsawl
   The tree is large

When adjectives are used attributively -- that is, directly describing a noun without using a linking verb such as "be" -- an a is affixed to the side facing the noun in question (hence tsawla utral if the order is reversed). When used as a standalone word, a introduces a subordinate clause:

   Oel yom yerikit a oeyä sempulìl tspolang
   I eat the hexapede that my father killed

This a actually works the same way as the affixed one. A more literal translation shows the relation:

   Oel tse'a utralit atsawl
   I see a large tree

   Oel yom yerikit a oeyä sempulìl tspolang
   I eat the my-father-killed(-it) hexapede

There's more to say on this, but I think that suffices for now. :)

// Lance R. Casey

Offline bristrek

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 12:06:27 pm »
Ma Lance, that link is fantastic! It uses the terms, multiple forms of the terms, explains what they all are, in small chunks, along with examples and so on. And your colour coded examples are pretty neat (and I wonder why more examples aren't doing it).

It was supposed to be 'winds', I went back and changed that.

Yeah, the remembering that ì and i are diferent is something I'm not used to and they look similar so I'm trying to remember!

And yeah, I figured that the wind kept on moving the leaves, making them dance and through that pictures were 'painted' and as the wind carries on that process continues to show different pictures and so on. So <el> would fit what I want there, I think.

On the zererok thing, that didn't feel right but apparently the version without anything like that was confusing? So was trying to say that the pictures painted were linked to history and times gone by but wasn't sure how and that's the best I could think of given just saying 'history gone by' or similar seemed to have been confusing by itself.

The hope isn't recalled, no. it's just...  linked to the above again? This may just me being weird or something. But the wind moves and sings about these distant ant sacred places and dances on the leaves which then paint pictures of family that are far away and make you think of times gone by and the hope of your... I was originally going to say heart bit I wasn't sure if that translated so I went with soul.

If that makes sense?

But the hope isn't being directly recalled, no.


Also, ma Lance and ma Tirea thanks for the explanation of that sentance and those words I was unfamiliar with. I had mostly guessed at the ayuä one but not so much the other and I couldn't find it in the dictionary... that it's the short hand for aytswari clears it up (well, in conjunction with the link) and I get what it was on about. That does work better.

Irayo!

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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Hufw-eyä tìrol
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 01:38:01 pm »
I think we need to pin down the exact intended meaning before further advice can be given. Going back to the original version, this is how I first understood it:

   The winds sing of a distant place
   [the wind] moves and the leaves dance
   [in so doing, the leaves are] painting pictures of distant family
   [and of] history long gone
   and [of] the hope of our souls.

   The wind[,] we never see [it]
   but it always will See us.


But with your later explanations perhaps this is a better interpretation of the first verse:

   The winds sing of a distant place
   [the wind] moves and the leaves dance
   [in so doing, the leaves are] painting pictures of distant family
   [thereby evoking] history long gone
   and the hope of our souls.


Or is it something else still?

Also, I just realized that there is a number mismatch between the first and second lines: first it's "winds", and then "it moves".

// Lance R. Casey

 

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