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Offline Cybersterio

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2013, 06:54:10 am »
Oe-yä ikran-ìl y<ay>om ay-fayoang-it (genitive, agentive and patientive)
My ikran will eat fish

Generally we use -it after consonants. Though there is an example Kelutralti in the movie. So perhaps it is not a mistake. But ayfayoangti sounds quite unnatural :)

Rest sentences are perfect ;)

Irayo ma Kemaweyan.


Trray oe pamrel sayi hu nì'Ìnglìsì adjectives

Finally, what happens if you’re groping for a word or expression that’s not there, and no circumlocution comes to mind? Assuming you share another language with your audience, rather than having communication come to a screeching halt it’s better to insert the needed word or expression in the language you both know into the Na’vi sentence, preceded by nì’Ìnglìsì, nìFranse, nìToitsye, nìTsyungwen, etc. E.g., Sunu oeru nì’Ìnglìsì basketball nìtxan. (Of course, if you were Na’vi, you’d be more likely to pronounce “basketball” something like päsketpol, so that would be fine in this context as well.)

Thanks for the tip Tirea Aean  :)

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2013, 07:11:17 am »
Oe-yä ikran-ìl y<ay>om ay-fayoang-it (genitive, agentive and patientive)
My ikran will eat fish

Generally we use -it after consonants. Though there is an example Kelutralti in the movie. So perhaps it is not a mistake. But ayfayoangti sounds quite unnatural :)

Rest sentences are perfect ;)

Irayo ma Kemaweyan.


Trray oe pamrel sayi hu nì'Ìnglìsì adjectives

Finally, what happens if you’re groping for a word or expression that’s not there, and no circumlocution comes to mind? Assuming you share another language with your audience, rather than having communication come to a screeching halt it’s better to insert the needed word or expression in the language you both know into the Na’vi sentence, preceded by nì’Ìnglìsì, nìFranse, nìToitsye, nìTsyungwen, etc. E.g., Sunu oeru nì’Ìnglìsì basketball nìtxan. (Of course, if you were Na’vi, you’d be more likely to pronounce “basketball” something like päsketpol, so that would be fine in this context as well.)

Thanks for the tip Tirea Aean  :)

I don't see a huge issue with ayfayoangti; Mo'at says fìketuwongti in the film. I don't think kelutralti or ketuwongti or whatever is wrong. Actually, it seems to me that the only consonants that would sound natural or good with -ti are n and ng, Maybe p. All the others sound kinda clunky, so... really, the best rule of thumb is use -it on words ending in consonants, -ti on words engind in vowels. For diphthongs, see this note(more in the link):

A NOTE ON CASE ENDINGS WITH DIPHTHONGS

As you know, Na’vi has four diphthongs: aw, ay, ew, ey. If a noun ends in a diphthong, there are a few things to keep in mind with some of the case endings.

The t-case for objects (also known as the patientive case):

With nouns ending in ey, the -it ending becomes simply t. Example: keyeyt ‘errors’ (not *keyeyit). With nouns ending in ay, the –it ending may become t: wayt  or wayit ‘song’—both forms are possible. For the other two diphthongs, the –it ending does not change: fahewit ‘smell,’ ’etnawit ‘shoulder.’

For all four diphthongs, the ti- form is also possible: keyeyti, wayti, fahewti, ’etnawti. [...]

No problem :)

Quote from: Tirea Aean
Can't help helpin'
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 07:21:11 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2013, 12:25:20 pm »
Oe-yä ikran-ìl y<ay>om ay-fayoang-it (genitive, agentive and patientive)
My ikran will eat fish

Generally we use -it after consonants. Though there is an example Kelutralti in the movie. So perhaps it is not a mistake. But ayfayoangti sounds quite unnatural :)

I don't see a huge issue with ayfayoangti; Mo'at says fìketuwongti in the film. I don't think kelutralti or ketuwongti or whatever is wrong. Actually, it seems to me that the only consonants that would sound natural or good with -ti are n and ng, Maybe p. All the others sound kinda clunky, so... really, the best rule of thumb is use -it on words ending in consonants, -ti on words engind in vowels. For diphthongs, see this note(more in the link):

I’d like to differ ;)
What does ‘sound natural or good’ mean … very subjective only ;)

The fact of the matter is that there is no hard rule that -ti cannot come after a consonant – that rule only applies for -t alone because a consonant cluster at the end of a syllable is not allowed. Thus, *korent is wrong but korenit and korenti are totally fine. Same with every other consonant ;)

We have two examples of --lti in the canon, 7 of --nti, and even one of --’ru … so I agree, -ti with n is most common but nothing forbids smarti (prey, patientive), pìwopxti (cloud), pamti (sound) etc. other than, of course, difficulty in pronouncing certain clusters ;)

Furthermore, by now (with the ‘new rule’ about endings for diphthongs) I think the -ru, -ti forms of the dative and patientive are the ones that should probably be learned first because they are the ones that apply to every ending, whether vowel, diphthong or consonant. Thus they provide a quicker usage and easier memorization because it’s only one form :D

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2013, 02:32:57 pm »
I don't see a huge issue with ayfayoangti; Mo'at says fìketuwongti in the film. I don't think kelutralti or ketuwongti or whatever is wrong. Actually, it seems to me that the only consonants that would sound natural or good with -ti are n and ng, Maybe p. All the others sound kinda clunky, so... really, the best rule of thumb is use -it on words ending in consonants, -ti on words engind in vowels. For diphthongs, see this note(more in the link):
Where -ti is used in movie or not is not important, AFAIK -ti is universal ending for patientive case; if you aren't sure what to use (-it, -t, -ti), this is always correct.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Cybersterio

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2013, 05:35:39 am »
Kaltxì nìmun, ma aysmukan. In these next few sentences I have tried to incorporate adjectives as well as focusing on case endings.

Po-an sìltsan-a taronyu
He is a good hunter

Oe-yä toruk-il yom fxtìlora payoang-it
My toruk eats the delicious fish

Oe-l t<am>aron txewm-a aynantang-it
I hunted scary nantang

Po-an-ä tsmuk-an-ä tsko a-mip
His brother's boys is new

Oe-l t<am>ìng oe-yä lola ay-seze-ti oe-yä tsmuk-er
I gave my beautiful flowers to my sister

Irayo :)

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2013, 05:52:03 am »
Po-an sìltsan-a taronyu lu
He is a good hunter

Don't forget the verb :)

Oe-yä toruk-ìl yom fxtìlora payoang-it
My toruk eats the delicious fish

I think it's a typo. But i and ì are a bit different sounds.

Po-an-ä tsmuk-an-ä tsko lu mip
His brother's boys is new

You must use lu in this sentence. Tsko amip means «a new bow», but «bow is new» would be tsko lu mip.

Oe-l t<ol>ìng oe-yä lora ay-syulang-it oe-yä tsmuk-e-r
I gave my beautiful flowers to my sister

I think -ol- would be better because the action is done. Also «beautiful» is lor (not lol) and «flower» is syulang (seze is a species of flowers). Of course, you could say tolìng aysezeti, but the meaning would differ a bit: I gave "seze"s.

Also -er in tsmuker is not one suffix, that's -e + -r(u).
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Offline Cybersterio

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2013, 06:06:26 am »
Irayo, ma Eana :)

Pamrel si oe sìltsan srak?

Offline Eana Unil

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2013, 06:11:42 am »
Kaltxì ma Cybersterio,

srane, pamrel seiyi nga ltsan li :) Nga zene tskxekeng sivi nì'ul nì'it, slä fì'u zo ;).

'olaku oel tì'eyngti oeyä, taluna Kemaweyan to oe win lamu. ;)

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2013, 07:07:28 am »
Po-an-ä tsmuk-an-ä tsko lu mip
His brother's bow is new

You must use lu in this sentence. Tsko amip means «a new bow», but «bow is new» would be tsko lu mip.
Also it is more common to do not use gender in Na'vi, so: Peyä tsmuk-an-ä tsko lu mip (po + yä -> last vowel in pronoun changes to e -> pe + yä ->peyä).
but there's nothing wrong with poanä.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2013, 09:40:08 am »
Po-an-ä tsmuk-an-ä tsko lu mip
His brother's bow is new

You must use lu in this sentence. Tsko amip means «a new bow», but «bow is new» would be tsko lu mip.
Also it is more common to do not use gender in Na'vi, so: Peyä tsmuk-an-ä tsko lu mip (po + yä -> last vowel in pronoun changes to e -> pe + yä ->peyä).
but there's nothing wrong with poanä.
This is true. It's almost like peyä is so common that it pretty much seems weird (to me) to see/use poanä or poeyä (Or other cased versions of poan and poe). Another thing that's interesting is that it's the opposite for tsmukan/tsmuke. Those words are so much more common than tsmuk. I've always wondered why.

I'm with everyone in their corrections.

Ma Kemaweyan, I'd like to ask your opinion on when <am> should be used, and when should <ol> be used. Because pretty much every time you say something in the past tense, the action is done. Kefyak? I struggle to teach the difference between <am>/<ol> effectively.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2013, 10:37:01 am »
Ma Kemaweyan, I'd like to ask your opinion on when <am> should be used, and when should <ol> be used. Because pretty much every time you say something in the past tense, the action is done. Kefyak? I struggle to teach the difference between <am>/<ol> effectively.

I think -ol- means that the action is done and now result matters. For example, oel tolìng tskoti tsmukanur could be an answer to question «where is you bow?» or «why you have not a bow?» or something similar. It means that now the bow is in brother's possession (maybe temporary). Using -ol- we speak about present though the action might happen in the past.

-am- indicates that an action happened sometime in the past and nothing else does not matter. It could be an answer to «did you do something?», «have you an experience to do something?». So oel tamìng tskoti tsmukanur means that I gave the bow to my brother once or many times in the past. However now this bot might be in my possession (it's unknown and does not matter where is the bow now). Examples:

  Ngaru ke lu pelun tsko set?
  Oel tolìng tsat tsmukanur.

  Tsmukan ngeyä tsun tivem fa tsko srak?
  Srane, oel tamìng por tskoti oeyä.

So why I changed -am- to -ol- in Cybersterio's sentence? He speaks about oeyä lora aysyulang, so these are concrete flowers and I can't give those twice. I think the question to this sentence would be «where are you beautiful flowers?» or «what you gave to your sister?». Anyway result matters. -am- seems weird here, IMO.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2013, 12:18:16 pm »
Kalxtì, ma aysmukan  :) Today I have been practising sentences including modal verbs. Hope you can check them out :) Irayo

Oe zene yivom aysyuvet
The aysyuve is getting eaten, so it must have the "-t(i)" ending. Oe does not get "-l" since oe is not eating the aysyuve yet, just having to. TA probably has a better explanation ;)

Oel kan tivul ne kelkuti
Is the kelku getting (verb)ed by something? No, it is walked toward. Thus, it does not get any case ending. Since nothing is getting (verb)ed, oe's action does not have a direct object and thus oe does not get the -l.

Nga zenke rival mìfa
Correct

Oel new tivaron ayioangit
Oe is just wanting. It's not really eating something. On the other hand, the ayioang are getting eaten in the imagination/want of oe, and thus get -it.


Trray oel pamrel sayi hu "adjectives".
Nothing within the sentence is getting written. Oe thus does not get the -l.
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Cybersterio

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2013, 05:21:06 am »
Kaltxì! Here comes the "Sentence bombardment!". Just some more practise sentences actually :)

Oel yìmom ftxìlora fkxenit
I just ate a delicious vegetable

Oeyä sa'nokìl 'em syuvet aftxìvä
My mother cooks disgusting food

Ngayä kelku lu lor
Your home is beautiful

Ayoe kelku sami tsray ahì'i
We lived in a small village

Poanìl tolìng aysyulangit alor poeru
He gave her beautiful flowers

Irayo :)

Offline Plumps

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2013, 05:25:14 am »
Ngeyä kelku lu lor
Your home is beautiful

Ayoe kelku sami tsray ahì'i
We lived in a small village

… or mì sray ahì’i.

Otherwise, everything is fine, as far as I see ;) Seysonìltsan!

Offline Cybersterio

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2013, 05:39:36 am »
Irayo ma Plumps. What does the -mì mean at the end of tsraymì?

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2013, 06:20:57 am »
Irayo ma Plumps. What does the -mì mean at the end of tsraymì?
It's used as a postposition. Na'vi allows both mì sray and tsraymì, unlike many (most? all?) natural languages which prescribe one or the other (English the first, Japanese the second for example)
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

Offline Cybersterio

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2013, 08:16:42 am »
Ahhhh k irayo ma Ithisa :)

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2013, 08:20:03 am »
Ma Kemaweyan, I'd like to ask your opinion on when <am> should be used, and when should <ol> be used. Because pretty much every time you say something in the past tense, the action is done. Kefyak? I struggle to teach the difference between <am>/<ol> effectively.
IMO it depends on what fact you want to emphasize; whether that action occurred in past (am), whether it is completed (ol) or whether it was completed in the past (alm).
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Cybersterio

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2013, 04:52:32 am »
Kaltxì kaltxì ma aysmukan sì aysmuke :) I got more sentences today, specifically using adp. listed words :)

Oe s<ol>op nuä ay-ram
I travelled beyond the mountains

Moe-l yom wutso-ti, lisre hahaw moe
We eat dinner, before we sleep

Oe-l y<ay>em ay-syulang-it mì hllte-r
I will plant the flowers in the ground

Ìlä sa'nok, oe plltxe lì'fya nìNa'vi sìltsan
According to mother, I speak the Na'vi language well (Is plltxe is transitive or intransitive?)

Po k<ol>ä ne kulke sre son'ong
He came home before night-fall

Irayo, for your continued support :)

Offline Irtaviš Ačankif

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Re: Practice Sentences
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2013, 05:45:18 am »
Kaltxì kaltxì ma aysmukan sì aysmuke :) I got more sentences today, specifically using adp. listed words :)

Oe s<ol>op nuä ay-ram
I travelled beyond the mountains

Moe-l yom wutso-ti, lisre hahaw moe
We eat dinner, before we sleep
You could *probably* do without the second moe, sounds a bit weird to me. TA should confirm whether it works though.

Oe-l y<ay>em ay-syulang-it mì hllte-r
I will plant the flowers in the ground
Whenever a noun is preceded or followed by an adposition it uses no suffixes. Or if this helps you, think of adpositions as actually additional cases on the noun (a construction like klltemì makes it clear) rather than independent words. A noun can't have more than one case on it.

Ìlä sa'nok, oe plltxe lì'fya nìNa'vi snìltsan
According to mother, I speak the Na'vi language well (Is plltxe is transitive or intransitive?)
Plltxe is transitive but you should use it intransitively in this case. "I speak <>" is an Englishy construction. The language itself isn't really getting spoken, unless every dictionary and detail of the language gets dumped out of your mouth  ;) Instead use "plltxe nìNa'vi" - speak Na'vily, the idiomatic expression, or "plltxe lì'fyafa leNa'vi", speak using the Na'vi language.

The adverb form of sìltsan is nìltsan.

Po k<ol>ä ne kulke sre son'ong
He came home before night-fall

Irayo, for your continued support :)
Previously Ithisa Kīranem, Uniltìrantokx te Skxawng.

Name from my Sakaš conlang, from Sakasul Ältäbisäl Acarankïp

"First name" is Ačankif, not Eltabiš! In Na'vi, Atsankip.

 

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