Txontaw's practice thread

Started by Txontaw, January 09, 2010, 01:16:15 PM

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Txontaw

I'm working on that document right now, and I'm not quite sure what the correct usage is for Topical. Is it just a way to mark a word as important within a sentence?

For example, would;

My spear is sharp
Oe-yä tukru-ri lu pxi
I-[Gen] spear-[Top] be sharp

The same as:

My spear is sharp
Oe-yä tukru lu pxi-ri
I-[Gen] spear be sharp-[Top]

But with spear being important in one, and sharp being important in the other?

If I did anything else wrong, please help me fix it, so we can get to the main question.

Also, as a side question, what are affixes? Are they kind of like suffixes?
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


HTML_Earth

Quote from: Txontaw on January 09, 2010, 01:16:15 PM
Also, as a side question, what are affixes? Are they kind of like suffixes?

Edit: affixes are prefixes, suffixes, etc.

kewnya txamew'itan

The second is wrong. Sharp is an adjective and -ri is a noun case, it cannot be applied to adjectives.

As for the top one, a topical marker is more than is necessary, it doesn't need to be marked as it is the subject of an intransitive verb.

The correct sentence would be oe-yä tukri lu pxi
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Txontaw

Well, you fixed the sentences, but I still don't get the point of Topical suffixes...
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Plumps

That's an interesting question. Personally, I've never seen the topical marker used for adjectives before and I'm not sure whether that is even possible (but then again, why not? if you want to draw attention to the sharpness of the spear...?)

I'm having difficulties in the right usage of the topical marker as well ... tried to understand it and asked a friend who studies Japanese (where a kind-of topical marker exists as well) but it didn't enlighten me.

HTML_Earth explained it correctly: affix is the hypernym (umbrella term???) for prefixes, suffixes, and infixes.

I spotted one little typing error:
2nd sentence should be: oe-yä tukru lu pxi-ri. - again, no idea whether you can use -ri with adjectives.

What do the others say?

Txontaw

Oops, my bad on the second sentence. That was just a slip up of the keyboard.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


okrìsti

Yeah,
a case, which -ri is can not be applied to an adjective.
If you want to stress the sharpness, I would literally do so:
tì-pi(-ri) (tukru-yä)
the sharpness (of the knife)
I still have no idea how you would express following, because it is your knife:
the sharpness of my knife
...
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kewnya txamew'itan

Quote from: Plumps83 on January 09, 2010, 01:45:59 PM
That's an interesting question. Personally, I've never seen the topical marker used for adjectives before and I'm not sure whether that is even possible (but then again, why not? if you want to draw attention to the sharpness of the spear...?)

I'm having difficulties in the right usage of the topical marker as well ... tried to understand it and asked a friend who studies Japanese (where a kind-of topical marker exists as well) but it didn't enlighten me.

HTML_Earth explained it correctly: affix is the hypernym (umbrella term???) for prefixes, suffixes, and infixes.

I spotted one little typing error:
2nd sentence should be: oe-yä tukru lu pxi-ri. - again, no idea whether you can use -ri with adjectives.

What do the others say?


About the topical marker, cases are a feature of nouns so it is impossible for an adjective to take one.

As for when to use the topical, you can think of it to a certain extent as stressing that pronoun (for example, I hunted with the stress on I, implying that you didn't could be translated as oeri tayaron).

Other uses for the topical are if it is necessary to specify who/what you're interested in (e.g. the viperwolf attacked him if we're interested in him would be nantangil poanri 'eko sayi.

It could also potentially be used as a substitute for the passive voice (e.g. we were hunted by sky people -> ayoeri tawtutel tayaron).

I hope that helps.
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Txontaw

Would this be correct? I'm pretty sure I have the wrong "what", though.

What is your strange speech?
pehem lu nga-ri hiyìk-a plltxe ?
What be you-[TOP] strange-[conn.] speak?

"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Taronyu

Quote from: Txontaw on January 09, 2010, 03:17:41 PM
Would this be correct? I'm pretty sure I have the wrong "what", though.

What is your strange speech?
pehem lu nga-ri hiyìk-a plltxe ?
What be you-[TOP] strange-[conn.] speak?

Peu lu nga-ri hiyìk tì-plltxe?
What be your strange speech?

Would be better.

Plumps

Quote from: kawng mungeyu on January 09, 2010, 03:17:17 PM
About the topical marker, cases are a feature of nouns so it is impossible for an adjective to take one.

As for when to use the topical, you can think of it to a certain extent as stressing that pronoun (for example, I hunted with the stress on I, implying that you didn't could be translated as oeri tayaron).

Other uses for the topical are if it is necessary to specify who/what you're interested in (e.g. the viperwolf attacked him if we're interested in him would be nantangil poanri 'eko sayi.

It could also potentially be used as a substitute for the passive voice (e.g. we were hunted by sky people -> ayoeri tawtutel tayaron).

I hope that helps.

Thanks for clarifying ... I think I just need to see that in practice. When our vocab is bigger and stories will arise and I get used to people writing more and more in Na'vi I'll probably get my head around it eventually and grasp the concept. ;)

Irayo

Txontaw

So, the tì- connects them and makes strange define speech?
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Txontaw

#12
New sentence attempt, here goes nothing;

Neytìri and I hunt the animals that live in the forest

Neytìri sì oe-l taron ay-ioang-it tsakem rey mì na'rìng

Neytiri and I-[ERG] hunt [plural]-animal-[accusatory] that live in forest

Another:

The blue animal lives in flying lands

ioang-ìri aean rey mì atxkxe a-lu-tswayon

animal-[TOP] [adj. marker]-blue lives in land [adj. marker]-[adj. converter]-fly
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Tsamsteu

Quote from: Txontaw on January 09, 2010, 10:11:02 PM
New sentence attempt, here goes nothing;

Neytìri and I hunt the animals that live in the forest

Neytìri sì oe-l taron ay-ioang tsakem kelku si na'rìng

Neytiri and I-[ERG] hunt [plural]-animal that live forest



Good, couple mistakes though:

Neytiri sì oe-l taron ay-ioang-it tsakem mì na'rìng rey.

You missed the -it on ay-ioang (its a direct object, accusatory, so it requires -it suffix); also, you used kelku (which is home, noun i believe), rey is the verb for to live; lastly, the word for in is "mì"
"You have a strong heart; no fear. But stupid, ignorant like a child." - Neytiri

Neytiri, oeyä tsmuke, oel ngati kameie....

Txontaw

Quote from: Txontaw on January 09, 2010, 10:11:02 PM
New sentence attempt, here goes nothing;

Neytìri and I hunt the animals that live in the forest

Neytìri sì oe-l taron ay-ioang-it tsakem rey mì na'rìng

Neytiri and I-[ERG] hunt [plural]-animal-[accusatory] that live in forest

Another:

The blue animal lives in flying lands

ioang-ìri aean rey mì atxkxe a-lu-tswayon

animal-[TOP] [adj. marker]-blue lives in land [adj. marker]-[adj. converter]-fly

Fixed the first, how about the second?
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Tsamsteu

um..everything is good, just a bit confused on a translation for flying lands? where are you getting lu from
"You have a strong heart; no fear. But stupid, ignorant like a child." - Neytiri

Neytiri, oeyä tsmuke, oel ngati kameie....

Tengfya swizaw

Quote from: Txontaw on January 09, 2010, 10:11:02 PM
New sentence attempt, here goes nothing;

Neytìri and I hunt the animals that live in the forest

Neytìri sì oe-l taron ay-ioang tsakem kelku si na'rìng

Neytiri and I-[ERG] hunt [plural]-animal that live forest

Another:

The blue animal lives in flying lands


ioang-ìri aean kelku si atxkxe a-lu-tswayon

animal-[TOP] [adj. marker]-blue dwells land [adj. marker]-[adj. converter]-fly

What Tsamsteu  said applies, and I think that you would use "ulte" as and in this case. I'm told there's a difference.
As for the second, it looks alright. One thing I'm confused by: what was your logic with the "adjective converter" at the end, and where'd you get it from?


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Tsamsteu

Quote from: Tengfya swizaw on January 09, 2010, 10:27:54 PM
Quote from: Txontaw on January 09, 2010, 10:11:02 PM
New sentence attempt, here goes nothing;

Neytìri and I hunt the animals that live in the forest

Neytìri sì oe-l taron ay-ioang tsakem kelku si na'rìng

Neytiri and I-[ERG] hunt [plural]-animal that live forest

Another:

The blue animal lives in flying lands


ioang-ìri aean kelku si atxkxe a-lu-tswayon

animal-[TOP] [adj. marker]-blue dwells land [adj. marker]-[adj. converter]-fly

What Tsamsteu  said applies, and I think that you would use "ulte" as and in this case. I'm told there's a difference.
As for the second, it looks alright. One thing I'm confused by: what was your logic with the "adjective converter" at the end, and where'd you get it from?

no, ulte would not be used over sì. The use of ulte is to connect sentences, to form a compound sentence.
Sì is used as "and" is to connect words.

Oe taron ulte nga tsawyon. ---> I hunt, and you fly.

Nga sì oe taron. -----> You and I hunt.
"You have a strong heart; no fear. But stupid, ignorant like a child." - Neytiri

Neytiri, oeyä tsmuke, oel ngati kameie....

Txontaw

Yeah, I don't know what I was doing with fly, but I think it was something like, fly is a verb, so you use the adj. converter to make it into an adjective, then you use the adjective marker to connect it to land.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Tsamsteu

Quote from: Txontaw on January 09, 2010, 10:38:49 PM
Yeah, I don't know what I was doing with fly, but I think it was something like, fly is a verb, so you use the adj. converter to make it into an adjective, then you use the adjective marker to connect it to land.

OH! I got it now, you might want to use the <us> infix, which changes verbs to a participle:

Tsw<us>ayon atxkxe

Flying Land; however ke oe omum if you need -a adjective marker....
"You have a strong heart; no fear. But stupid, ignorant like a child." - Neytiri

Neytiri, oeyä tsmuke, oel ngati kameie....