Author Topic: Word Football Game  (Read 20355 times)

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Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2011, 11:38:41 am »
I'll explain about the three cases agentive, patientive, dative

the agentive case marker is l or ìl. it means that the one marked with this, is the one doing the action. the kid throws the ball - the kid is the agent (he is the subject).

the patientive case marker is t or ti and it. this one means that the one marked with this case, is the one that is "done" (it's the opposite of the agentive). the kid throws the ball - the ball is being thrown (it is the direct object).

the dative case marker is ru or r and ur. this marks an indirect object which is the one to whom the action was done.
the kid throws the ball to the girl - the girl is the indirect object
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2011, 11:58:50 am »
I'll explain about the three cases agentive, patientive, dative

the agentive case marker is l or ìl. it means that the one marked with this, is the one doing the action. the kid throws the ball - the kid is the agent (he is the subject).

the patientive case marker is t or ti and it. this one means that the one marked with this case, is the one that is "done" (it's the opposite of the agentive). the kid throws the ball - the ball is being thrown (it is the direct object).

the dative case marker is ru or r and ur. this marks an indirect object which is the one to whom the action was done.
the kid throws the ball to the girl - the girl is the indirect object
Well, it is really usefull explanation. So main problem seems to be decipher what is subject, direct and indirect object.
Lets take simplified sentence: I teach the computer. What is computer here - direct or indirect object? I seems that direct object, what is different from Czech.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2011, 01:05:24 pm »
well.. computer will be the direct object since it is being taught.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2011, 01:23:21 pm »
No, it's still indirect. Direct object is omitted here.
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Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2011, 01:25:06 pm »
No, it's still indirect. Direct object is omitted here.
*comes out of lurking*

Is that because of the "the" before it?


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Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2011, 01:38:44 pm »
No, articles don't exist in Na'vi, so they can't have any impact on that. It's because computer in any case will be the receiver of teaching. What you teach it will be in patientive case (direct object).

When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2011, 01:44:40 pm »
No, articles don't exist in Na'vi, so they can't have any impact on that. It's because computer in any case will be the receiver of teaching. What you teach it will be in patientive case (direct object).
So, in a slightly modified sentence (if all of these words existed in Na'vi so we'll just pretend they do)

I am teaching the dog to play.
Green = subject
Teal = ID object? :3


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Sireayä mokri

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2011, 01:53:37 pm »
I am teaching the dog to play.
Green = subject
Teal = ID object? :3

Yes, correct. So, I'd translate it as oel kar nantangtsyìpur futa uvan si.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2011, 01:57:40 pm »
I am teaching the dog to play.
Green = subject
Teal = ID object? :3
Yes, correct. So, I'd translate it as oel kar nantangtsyìpur futa uvan si.
Because it would technically be:
I am teaching to play to the dog.

Or, I am teaching new tricks to the dog.


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Tanri

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2011, 02:06:48 pm »
Lets take simplified sentence: I teach the computer. What is computer here - direct or indirect object? I seems that direct object, what is different from Czech.
I forgot almost everything i learned in the good old school times, about Czech grammar. I speak it correctly, but i can't explain the exact theory behind it. Regarding English, Czech and Na'vi, definitely i am best in the grammar of Na'vi :D.

From my czech point of view, the sentence "I teach the computer" is totally different from "I teach the computer how to work":
Compare this:
1) I(subject) teach the-computer(object).
2) I(subject) teach how-to work(object).
3) I(subject) teach the-computer(indirect object that receives the teaching) how-to-work(direct object that i teach).

In 1 and 2, i think the grammar is the same even when the meaning is different, because i can apply the verb "to teach" in two ways - 1) "to teach someone" and 2) "to teach something". In both sentences is only "object", not "direct object", because those are synonyms here - if i have only one type of object in sentence, it's just a "object".
In 3, i cannot have one verb and more direct objects with meaning like this, because i have to make a difference in meaning between them - one has to fit in "to teach something" and another fits in "to teach someone". This is a true reason for "direct object" (what i teach) versus "indirect object" (whom i teach).

In Na'vi, it looks like the direct object of the verb "kar" is always "what i teach", thus the object "whom i teach" must be expressed with the only one remaining way - the "indirect object", dative.

Following this logic, the sentence 1) in Na'vi should be : "Oe kar eltur lefngap", without direct object thus without ergative.
What do you think about this?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 02:09:09 pm by Tanri »
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2011, 02:14:22 pm »
In Na'vi, it looks like the direct object of the verb "kar" is always "what i teach", thus the object "whom i teach" must be expressed with the only one remaining way - the "indirect object", dative.

Following this logic, the sentence 1) in Na'vi should be : "Oe kar eltur lefngap", without direct object thus without ergative.
What do you think about this?
Makes sense to me.

I hate how third grade teachers in America conveniently forgot to teach cases and im/perfect that would make learning new languages (which is now mandatory for Class of 2016 and higher which I am thankfully not part of but still frustrated by) so much easier.
>:(

/quote fix


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2011, 03:07:53 pm »
Quote
I forgot almost everything i learned in the good old school times, about Czech grammar. I speak it correctly, but i can't explain the exact theory behind it. Regarding English, Czech and Na'vi, definitely i am best in the grammar of Na'vi
Agree with you (you are really good at grammar). I have never bother my head with linguistic rules I never understand. I simply read many books and was happy.

Your analysis sounds to be correct, I was thinking the similar way, but didn't finish my thoughts to the end. Now I feel better but I must think about it in deep. I already noticed that Na'vi requires different kind of thinking, but I'm still not at the correct level. Karma for you (not only for this explanation)

But back from depression to the game: last word was kar. Who will continue?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2011, 03:16:51 pm »
kar -> ral  I will quote AP Nova from Tìpängkxo Kìng in nìNa'vi nì'aw:

Quote
Lu "herwì" lì'u aketeng nìngay to "teyra tompa", slä "tskxepay" stum lu na "txa'a pay", ral lu teng, nì'aw lu lì'u alahe.
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Stranger Come Knocking

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2011, 08:53:06 am »
kar -> ral  I will quote AP Nova from Tìpängkxo Kìng in nìNa'vi nì'aw:

Quote
Lu "herwì" lì'u aketeng nìngay to "teyra tompa", slä "tskxepay" stum lu na "txa'a pay", ral lu teng, nì'aw lu lì'u alahe.

I thought the point of this was to come up with our own grammatically incorrect sentences and get help for them.  Isn't this cheating? ;D


I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

This is my book.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery.

Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2011, 11:42:22 am »
I think the point of the game is for us to learn Na'vi. even correct sentences' grammar can be not understood by someone, that will ask a question and learn something new.

Lu "herwì" lì'u aketeng nìngay to "teyra tompa", slä "tskxepay" stum lu na "txa'a pay", ral lu teng, nì'aw lu lì'u alahe.
"herwì" is a really different word from "teyra tompa", but "tskxepay" is almost like "txa'a pay", the meaning is the same, only the word is different.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #75 on: April 02, 2011, 02:01:04 pm »
kar -> ral  I will quote AP Nova from Tìpängkxo Kìng in nìNa'vi nì'aw:

Quote
Lu "herwì" lì'u aketeng nìngay to "teyra tompa", slä "tskxepay" stum lu na "txa'a pay", ral lu teng, nì'aw lu lì'u alahe.

I thought the point of this was to come up with our own grammatically incorrect sentences and get help for them.  Isn't this cheating? ;D

Oeru txoa livu.  I thought a correct example once in a while might also be helpful.  Also, I couldn't think of anything good right off hand and wanted to "keep the ball in play". :)
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2011, 02:47:41 pm »
lahe - Eywa
ma nawma Eywa, srung sivi oeru rutxe. famrelìri trray lu oer tìfmetok numtsengmì. :(
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2011, 03:03:07 pm »
Using sentences from other parts of this forum doesn't break rules (I hope  :)) Even correct examples are welcome  :)
lahe - Eywa
ma nawma Eywa, srung sivi oeru rutxe. famrelìri trray lu oer tìfmetok numtsengmì. :(
Great Eywa, please help me. Regarding to literature, I have exam in the school tomorrow.

Wou, ngaru lu tìfmetok mì trr'awve? Numtseng ke lu tstu?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2011, 03:07:57 pm »
look at my profile. I'm Israeli. we Jews don't go don't to school only on Saturdays. so yes, I do have school on Sunday. :(
and I do have a literature test tomorrow. I'm pretty nervous since I suck at Literature, and also I don't have all the material since I wasn't listening in class at that moment :(.
but anyway, your translation of my sentence is good. ;)
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Word Football Game
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2011, 03:24:11 pm »
Interesting for me, I didn't know it. I also like literature to read it, but not to speak about it in the school.

Ngaru flusä. Fmi pivlltxe nìNa'vi, karyur layu yayayr  :)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 01:34:04 pm by Blue Elf »
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


 

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