Collaboration with "The Revolutionists"

Started by Predict, July 18, 2010, 03:40:13 PM

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Predict

I'm sure most of you are aware of The Revolutionists but if not look here: http://revolutionists.aurora-glacialis.de/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=50

They are working to create a similar 'tribe' and we share many of the same goals. We have discussed working together on research before but it has not come to anything. If everyone agrees I was hoping we could open a more official interaction and start collaborating, sharing research, etc.

If no one has any objections I think this could be very beneficial for both parties.

Txonari

#1
I agree. The more help we can get --and give-- the better.

However, wouldn't this require a separate forum?
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

Again, sounds like a good idea, what's the best way to set up links?
Key'ìl Nekxetse on "The Revolutionists"
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The program life received signal SIGSEV. Core dumped.

Txonari

Quote from: Key'ìl nekxetse on July 19, 2010, 03:24:43 PM
what's the best way to set up links?

Easiest would probably be a separate forum, since it wouldn't be nearly as confusing as trying to mix the two separate communities.

I'd be more than willing to set up a new forum for the project, if required.
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

Haven't we already got two forums, seems wasteful to start another! The trouble is getting everyone to do one thing or another. Perhaps it's best if people are registered in both places. In words, I'm not sure what would work best, and anyway the opinions of three people aren't enough!  ;)
Key'ìl Nekxetse on "The Revolutionists"
~$ life --help
The program life received signal SIGSEV. Core dumped.

Txonari

There should probably be a poll for this.

I think at least we would need a specific centralized forum for collaboration. It doesn't have to be a new one, necessarily, but at least one forum designated for collaboration. Only because, like I said, if we had people on both forums, it could easily get confusing.
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Predict

An additional forum seems impractical. They have a wiki set up for research that would be good for collaboration.
It's not a critical decision but we can hold a poll if that's what everyone wants?

Txonari

Well, yeah you're right about the extra forum being impractical. And if they have a wiki, that would probably work out alright. I was just concerned about having users from both forums, with different usernames, on each of the other forums -- trying to collaborate that way would be confusing as we wouldn't really know who was on what project, etc.
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Tsteu'itan

#8
You could always ask for people to post what their names on each forum are on their signatures or something of that sort.  That way, it'd keep it more less confusing.

For my own input, though, I looked at the Revolutionists, and they seemed to be moving along steadily in their research, and possibly seemed like a larger internet-tribe, but I was also seeing a lot of aggressive tendencies from some of the members.  It was a little worrying to me.  There were some that went on and started discussions to try and smooth over the aggression and get people away from threatening to shoot people with bows and arrows if they stepped onto tribal land, but the fact that it came up at all in a serious debate worried me, especially since it hasn't even been discussed here.  No one in this group seems to be especially malicious towards outsiders, and I think that's a plus.

Again, I haven't seen the entire Revolutionists forum yet, so I may have just seen the "bad" thread, but I would hate to see the tribe become aggressive in any way, so it was concerning.

auroraglacialis

Hi. Just wanted to put a post in here to tell, that I am one of that group :)

I suggested cooperation a while ago, but sadly it did not take off and I was very busy at work the past weeks. The consensus in our group seems to be that we'd like to share information and research but not merge the groups.

On "bad posts" - I have to admit that there are some topics that are difficult. I dont remember seeing in this forum a thread on what to do if people threaten the village and its land (like illegal loggers or simply thieves). Maybe I missed it? I know of communities like this that have been wiped away by such incidents because they had no defense except praying, so I think it has to be discussed what to do under such circumstances. That some members suggested defense by weapons may not be a good thing, but it is a natural response I believe, especially by people who grew up in this society.

Some of the posts here in turn did differ from our views, for example the kind of government and rules. From what I have read here, the idea is to set up a majority democracy to vote for a leader and write down a set of laws. Our idea is to establish a consensus system without a leader or small group of people that could take decisions on its own and to rely less on written laws than on rules that are developed and passed on verbally.

This is why I think, the two groups want to keep seperate - there are some different views on some issues, but I think the similarities outweigh by far the differences, so I definitely think, a collaboration of any kind should happen. I think, if the communities are not too far away, trading or even people exchange could be possible, too at a later stage?

Anyways - I just wanted to offer myself as a first-contact person, I think there are at least 2 more of us registered here. Maybe a good strategy would be to appoint a few "diplomats" who keep the information updated between the groups (exchanging summaries of the decisions and major topics that have been discussed)?

Greetings
Aurora
I will just give some advice here and not participate in polls as I am involved with development of a sister clan of this one here which was founded independently. I believe however, we are one clan and we should stick together!

Tsteu'itan

I will agree, I think one of the best ways to ensure that the group succeeds is by having the tribes teamed up together in one way or another.  You might consider yourself separate communities, but if you were to somehow manage to join yourselves together into one group with smaller subgroups, it might help with the planning, execution, and even the credibility.

And when it comes to the subject of defense, I certainly think it's an important subject, and coming from a family who's quite proud of our right to own arms and self defense, I don't think violence is always a "bad" thing.  I'm simply more worried about some of the aggressive moods of some of the posts.  It would be rather naive and ill prepared to simply neglect the fact that there is going to come a time when there will be violence or aggression in one way or another towards the group.  Thieves are rampant, and trespassers can be quite a problem if they're intent on doing harm.  However, the subject of using violent means to defend the group should be handled very carefully.  Yes, there may very well come a time when it's needed, but until then, you don't want to be too arrow-happy, lest you come across as being a militant or extremist radical group, which someone on the other forum did mention, so it makes me feel a bit better to know that that possibility has already been considered.

But as I was saying before, having the two groups seperate but still cooperating closely could be a very good way to help build strength in the individual groups.  Also, it would give members of each group a way of figuring out which method works out the best for them.  In hard times, with two groups, you would have a group of people to support you if need be, and you would still be able to have your own rules and tribal hierarchy if you wanted.  Maybe just settling the groups on adjoining plots of land would work.

If both felt the need to have an ecovillage, you could also save time and money and labor by creating one village for the both of them.  With twice as many people building the buildings, it would go faster and easier, and you could use the village as a place to better communicate and coordinate the two.  And yeah, I agree about the trading and internal commerce that could be had with neighboring tribes.  The only problem is it would require a much larger plot of land to do.

Txonari

#11
Having the tribes very close to each other is a generally good idea, like you said. Each could help each other. But it also would greatly increase the risk of conflict between tribes as they grew. For example, conflicts over land ownership, food (hunting areas), etc. could arise when expansion inevitably happens.

How would we prevent this?
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Tsteu'itan

If the tribes were in enough of an agreement, then land ownership strife shouldn't be too big of a problem.  And if they each bought their own land, then it would be as simple as referring to the land deed to know where one plot of land ends and where another begins.

Food might be a bit harder to negotiate easily, but if you were to place the tribes closer together towards the middle of the land, and then have the hunting and gathering extend in opposite directions of the tribes, so that the hunting trails didn't conflict with one another.

But again, even that could be remedied with a high level of cooperation and peace between the two.  Communication is the key to peace, so that's the best thing to keep in mind.  :)

Txonari

All good points. The only other concern I can think of would be land costs. After all, with double (or even triple) the land needed, the costs would go way up. But, I guess that's a topic for another day.

And besides, we don't even know if moving the two tribes together is gonna happen anyway, so I guess that's a concern for when things are more concrete.
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Predict

I don't think we're in the position of even considering merging the groups, neither are far enough along and we do have our differences (although I sincerely hope we end up closer to your system of government).

Regarding collaboration, the response has definitely been positive so I think we should go ahead. Just to reinforce equality of influence we might as well do a quick poll (someone might be opposed, don't know why but they need to be heard ;)).

All being well we can make this official, update the wiki and the forums (stick a link in here and so on). Look forward to working together, I'm sure we can put aside any disagreements and benefit both groups.

auroraglacialis

Having two clans in a close by location would be really great for all kinds of purposes and I dont think "border conflicts" would be a problem, as I think none of the groups would actually consider growing beyond the capacity of the land. I think the best means to grow if there will be more people interested is to form a new community in a new place. Each clan should not have more than 50 or 100 members anyways.

However I have read here, that it seems like you are leaning towards tropical regions, so it may not be possible to have closeby villages after all, as I perceive our group seems to be leaning towards a more temperate climate, maybe some subtropical (mediterranean type) climate, though some talk even colder climates while some see trouble in that (I do as we will have to rely on horticulture/permaculture/gardening and that is more productive in warmer climates). Land availability and civilization development is a factor, too - clearly many good places are or are in the process of beeing "developed", resulting in roads beeing built and land prices rising.

So honestly I'd like to have two clans living in a regaion - even if it is some days walk away - it still would be worth a trading trip once in a while and would be interesting to cross "civilized land" in the process. People would ask who these travellers are, that would be interesting. A common village of the two tribes (ecovillage, base camp or therelike) would mean we'd have to almost merge the groups though - I think this is not what is wanted by the members right now.

What I'd look forward to however is to have maybe a common meeting. I think both groups will rather soon have to organize a real life meeting of the members or at least the core members / facilitators / focalizers. My suggestion will be for our group to make an initial meeting for the Euros and one for the US members. I think it would be really interesting to have a common meeting at some later time with both clans - like meeting in the same location - each group with its own meeting and then have a common meeting afterwards. That would be awesome and I think really worthwile. Do you plan on organizing a RL meeting?
I will just give some advice here and not participate in polls as I am involved with development of a sister clan of this one here which was founded independently. I believe however, we are one clan and we should stick together!

Txonari

#16
A meeting doesn't seem like the best idea as if yet. I've noticed a lot of the US members specifically (including me) are underage. (Just look at the US sign-up thread) Given that, it would probably be much more difficult to organize. But, that's just my opinion. It might very well work out.
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

At the current time, the people we have may not be entirely decided and a large problem may be that people don't have the money or the independence to be able to go very far. I think if we want to be able to talk in real-time, much sooner than we can meet up, then instant messaging and VoIP could be useful tools.
Key'ìl Nekxetse on "The Revolutionists"
~$ life --help
The program life received signal SIGSEV. Core dumped.

Txonari

Exactly. And if I'm not mistaken, LN already has a VoIP server somewhere? That would probably work out much better. Although in my experience with large groups over VoIP, it gets confusing when you don't really know who's talking. Maybe group video chat would be easier?
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

We could try using a radio communication style, take it in turns to talk, "blah blah blah, over"? ;)
Key'ìl Nekxetse on "The Revolutionists"
~$ life --help
The program life received signal SIGSEV. Core dumped.