Author Topic: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.  (Read 2331 times)

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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« on: September 25, 2010, 01:56:08 pm »
Okay, one of the many things we need to know to prepare for the up coming case study is what tech will and won't be allowed. I'm going to go through all past tech topics and gather as many past opinions and statements here just so no previously stated opinions are left out. This is gonna take a while, so bare with me. For the record, I'm not stating my opinions in the OP. I'm just trying to show where old discussions have gone.

TRANSPORTATION:

The primary opinions that I've seen are that we should either go barefoot or use some type of shoe. Those against going barefoot point to disease and injury and this in favor say once you have calluses, you're fine for the most part.

Also, many people point to the need for emergency evac. Truck, ATV's, even Heli's and dirt bikes have all been suggested. Some even say no vehicle at all.

Horses have also been suggested but it has been pointed out the the horse would need food and such. The idea doesnt seem popular.


MEDICATION/FIRST AID

Many people have suggested we allow medication and first aid in the tribe. Some have have suggested antidepressants, allergy medicine, and other prescribed medications be allowed. Some have suggested that those who need such meds may not be well suited for the tribe.

It has also been suggested that we have meds/first aid on hand to deal with emergencies. We seem to be unanimously in agreement on this.


ELECTRICITY

It has been suggested we bring some things requiring electricity such as transmitters, computers, phones, TV, ect. While the TV and phones don't seem too popular the computer and transmitter have gotten their share of support.

For the computer it has been suggested that it only be used to keep people up to date on the tribe, keep is up to date on the outside world, and keep in touch with family.

This means though, that we would need electricity and Internet. The popular idea is to have this in the Eco village which none of us seem to be discussing too deeply.


TOOLS

I haven't seen too much discussion on what tools to bring. A few that have been mentioned are saws, hammer/nails, tool kit to repair evac vehicle, and a few other such things.


WEAPONS

Bow/arrows, knives and spears are all things we've agreed on. I haven't seen any discussion about purchasing such weapons and bringing them though.

One thing almost all of us agreed on: NO GUNS!!



All right! There it is! I've finished searching the ENTIRE tribe section!! If I've missed anything, please point it out. If not, I think we should start voting on these topics one by one and make them "tribe law" so to speak. Don't forget, if something comes up down the line, we can always add it in.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 03:55:34 pm by 'Itan Atxur »

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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2010, 09:54:28 pm »
 To adress the tools and weapons issue; I'm not sure if many of you have gone into depth with tool creation and weapon smithing but it is generally a very difficult process.

 I myself have completed a hardwood longbow which took me three months of my summer and broke within two weeks of it's completion during stress testing. The stress testing was simply an acceleration of approximately a few months of field use. The bow was created hastily and improperly to simulate difficult building conditions that would be found in a tribal situation. For this reason i think it would be a good idea for a majority of the tribe's members to purchase a professionally crafted recurve that would last a good long time, certainly long enough for our own weapons craftsmen to make enough "traditional" bows for the tribe.

 Believe it or not, the most difficult bow accessory to craft are arrows. It is very difficult to find an appropriately dense stick that is near perfectly straight and balanced with no knots or imperfections along its entire surface with the perfect length for each individual archer. these would best be purchased entirely.

 Another thing about ancient hunting techniques that is widely misunderstand is the exactness of spear creation. Sure creating a spear for the purpose of jabbing is as simple as an easily wielded, strong, stick with a sharp point but, these spears are essentially useless against anything that can see or hear you coming. The more effective throwing spears are far more elegant in design than would be initially observed. A throwing spear must efficiently balance many factors including: Length, weight, girth, balance, and symmetry to name a few factors that determine its effectiveness. These factors are very hard to control in the field with little to no precise tools. I dont think that spears would be an effective hunting tool.

 I believe we will be trapping more often than hunting as it is much easier to create, maintain, and use traps.

 As for tools, tools created in field will obviously be much less finessed and durable than their machine crafted analogues. This is not to say there is no merit in self made tools. I will of course be very happy to create my own tools to use in lieu of the "unnatural" tools. it is just to point out that we should take a sufficient supply of every tool imaginable that would in some way benefit us and maintain them well even after we have created good tools ourselves. I think this goes without saying but i addressed it just to keep in format with the OP.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 10:01:52 pm by Letxuma Swizaw »
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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2010, 10:16:00 pm »
Well said. I agree with you completely.


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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2010, 10:43:57 pm »
well this is no fun. You and I get along to well where's all the people who want to refute everything I said and give their strongly opinionated views? I miss the conflict. it sounds bad i know, but it helped me get to know how the people here worked and eventually how to facilitate their needs. It's like what you always hear, arguments are good every once in a while for a successful relationship :D.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2010, 10:49:15 pm by Letxuma Swizaw »
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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2010, 10:46:07 pm »
I know what you mean. Conflict is where true personality shows through.


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Offline Tsteu'itan

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2010, 01:34:57 am »
I already mentioned some of my opinions on the discussion for the Eco Village.  One thing I think is important is to keep in mind that if the goal of the village is to show people that you can live more in touch with nature and live more tribal and be at peace with the world, then saying that people who need meds are "unfit" for the lifestyle defeats the purpose.  There are a great many millions of people who need medications of one form or another in this world, and to create a sustainable, modern way of living that allows you to live at peace with nature but still live well, you would need to take this into account.  Not everything can be remedied with herbal remedies or natural medicines.  Depression, hypothyroidism, diabetes, cancer.  Those are all things of varying severity that all need medical-grade treatments in one way or another.  There are some people that try to use holistic remedies to cure some more severe ailments, but those are rather hit-or-miss in their effectiveness.

When it comes to transportation, horses would probably be the most effective, green-friendly way of doing it.  The food that they need could conceivably be acquired through pasture-grazing in the area you lived in.  It worked for tribal communities hundreds and thousands of years ago, and it still works to this day for many nomadic peoples.  You would simply need to educate yourself on the types of food that would be accessable to the animals in the area that was finally decided.  And they're no more dangerous then motor vehicles if taken care of properly and proper education is given on how to ride them.

Offline Key'ìl Nekxetse

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2010, 03:45:13 am »
I'm not convinced hunting is a good idea. As far as I can tell, many of us are unskilled in the area, there are often laws against it and it takes a huge amount of energy.
Trapping is fairly efficient and works well, although it is often outlawed.
Initially, and probably into the future, I think we will need modern tools: a good steel knife will out-cut and outlast almost any flint or stone blade. I also think we will need firesteels or similar as an effective and long lasting method of firelighting.
Horses need a good vet; which could be a major problem.
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Offline Esmond

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2010, 09:10:28 am »
Regarding electricity, I think if you say we need radios for emergency situations then I'd agree but I don't see why we need Internet to keep in touch with the outside world. Why do we want to keep in touch with the outside world? If you want to keep in touch with families, send letters to them.

Trapping is less energy draining compared to hunting but would it be sufficient to supply the needs of the tribe?


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Offline Nantxe'lan

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2010, 11:21:56 am »
for the sake of overview i put the explanations of my oppinions and additional comments in spoilers.

well, i agree with the fact that trapping is easier than hunting. but as Esmond stated it might be difficult to supply the tribe only with trapping. a combination of hunting and trapping might be a possibility.


I agree with having a few bought bows. i think it is a good idea to have them at the beginning and atleast for the sake of having a just-in-case alternative to handmade bows.


i completely agree with Letxuma Swizaw about the fact that we need to buy the arrows. same counts for bowstrings. they're also a bit difficult to make by hand and depend on the available resources.


I think making tools is unnecessary and too difficult, since i guess all of us lack the "decades of experience" natvies have about making them propperly. so atleast basic tools like hammers, nails, knifes, rasps, hatchets, hand drills, etc should be allowed IMO.


in terms of vehicles i'd say two kinds of med evac are important: one to get the person out of the forrest back to the settlement and one to bring him to civilisation. and. i'm a bit torn appart about having horses in addition since i can't really see any use for them yet, but im aware that they MIGHT be usefull later.


concerning medication i'd say: as much as we can afford but only those we really know how to use them. remember: wrong medication can make things even worse.
first aid equipment is IMO absolutely essential.


I don't have much of an oppinion about the general tech level, since i take the view that having some tech around doesn't mean we have to use it all day. but it will be tempting to use it, nevertheless.
But to answer Esmonds question about internet:
Just to "spread the word". How can we be an inspiring example for others, if they don't know we exist?
despite that we can recruit more members for the tribe via internet.


and lastly: an addition to Letxuma Swizaw's statement aboud spears and throwing weapons:
"All I ever wanted in my sorry-ass life was a single thing worth fighting for."
"Sometimes your whole life boils down to one insane move."
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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2010, 11:38:03 am »
well this is no fun. You and I get along to well where's all the people who want to refute everything I said and give their strongly opinionated views? I miss the conflict. it sounds bad i know, but it helped me get to know how the people here worked and eventually how to facilitate their needs. It's like what you always hear, arguments are good every once in a while for a successful relationship :D.
I'm going to be real controversial and say I also have no argument about this, and I think that's a good thing, hah, a disagreement!  ;)

Now, electricity, we're going to need a source of electricity for radios, and internet? Personally I am sold on micro hydro, think water wheel. Compared to solar  or wind they require the least maintenance by a long way. As we already need a relatively fast moving stream for safe drinking water then hydro is also the most reliable method. Particularly if all it has to do is charge a battery on a radio. Check this for a UK micro hydro company: http://www.powerpal.co.uk/

Offline Esmond

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2010, 11:43:48 am »
I'm split between whether we should or should not have internet. Like Nantxe'lan said we want to be connected to inspire the people around us and he is right, that is part of what we want to do. But would people think "Oh these guys have Internet so I suppose they're not exactly living a tribal life" ?

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2010, 12:11:18 pm »
If we have sufficient numbers for there to be a strong distinction between. "Tribe" and "Village" then I see no problem with the village having the internet. One project, two groups. They're meant to function differently.

Offline Esmond

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2010, 12:25:08 pm »
So I suppose the idea of having both a tribe and an eco-village is inevitable if we are to safeguard different interests.

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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2010, 01:05:35 pm »

Trapping is less energy draining compared to hunting but would it be sufficient to supply the needs of the tribe?



In many situations trapping would be far more successful than hunting in terms of returns versus time and energy spent.

We also should consider that depending on where we live fishing is probably the most probable solution for our protein source. It should also be said that if you are american you are used to and probably think that it's normal for every meal to have meat in it. If anything we will only need meat about three times a week for a sufficient amount of protein.
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Offline Key'ìl Nekxetse

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2010, 04:12:10 pm »
Arrows: remember, arrows can be reused, you just have to pull them out (without them getting broken)!
I think the internet could be very important, both to talk about the project, and so we can find out what has happened outside the tribe's territory. We want to know if war war is imminent! If people think we are'nt really doing what we say we are, they aren't interested enough for it to matter.
I don't think the village should be separate.
Bows: Melting brains into the wood is meant to help, I think it's a native American technique. I can't remember where I found it, so I'm not sure how accurate that is.
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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2010, 05:01:31 pm »
you can cure it with any oily substance. brains are probably used because of their high fat content. i would rather save brains for food for that very reason depending on the abundance of food supplies.
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Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 12:46:17 am »
I'll let you guys talk about the bows, I'm not too knowledgable on the subject, same with trapping. Though when it comes to fishing, I definitely agree that it could be a good main food source. Especially since fishing laws tend to be less restrictive than hunting laws.

For electronics, I agree that a TV wouldn't be very important - more a waste of energy than anything. I do see the benefits of an Internet connection though. It would still be nice to save as a link to the outside world, and as a tool to get our message out. A shortwave radio wouldn't be a bad idea either, as well as some walkie talkies to keep track of hunting parties, or others who stray far from camp. As for how the electricity to power said equipment is made, I've always supported solar - due to all the advances of it that have been made in the recent past - but I can go with whatever the tribe decides. I'm also looking into ways to possibly home-brew biofuels, in case we need to power generators or a vehicle, which leads me into...

Transportation - I wouldn't mind barefoot walking myself. Calouses do build up overtime which makes it easier as time goes on. There are also the Five Fingers, which I would recommend to people who want the feel of barefoot walking, but without some of the risks, like getting cuts and such. As for horses, I am personally in the crowd that supports them. They're a good way to travel longer distances than on foot, and would also be a good way to pull around equipment or resources if necessary. If you guys want to see some good info on horses go check out Yaynari's posts. I'm sure if she's with us, we could make it work. She's definitely got the know-how on the subject. I'm still throwing around my hang glider idea too. Though how it progresses really does depend on what landscape we choose. So while it's definitely something I want to work on, I've got it on hold until a more solid land decision is made. As for motor vehicles, I can go either way. We should definitely bring a small row boat or some kayaks along to aid in fishing.


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Offline Key'ìl Nekxetse

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2010, 01:45:46 am »
Boats: Could we make kayaks? It might be easier to make them on site rather than have to ship something in. Might save use some money! :D
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Offline Tsteu'itan

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2010, 03:36:10 am »
Most of the ideas that people are having about the general tech of the tribe/village are pretty good ones, as far as I see.  The only thing I do have a disagreement with would be the assumption that connections with the outside world should be abolished.  Yes, the tribe is trying to make a more naturalistic, tribal way of life to try and live life more freely and peacefully and with nature, but that doesn't mean you should shut the world out completely.  And to tell people that they can only contact their loved ones in one way because you don't want a level of technology that - if used correctly - could be very beneficial and cause no real harm is...well...I'll be polite about it.  Let's face it.  Most people who are looking to join the tribe probably don't have their entire family and group of friends planning to join them.  No one is going to just want to shut their families and friends out altogether.  It's harmful to a person's psychology, and it orders on "cult" mentality.  One of the biggest signs and worrying things about fringe groups that hurt their members is shutting them off from the outside world. 

With the possibility of not having a post office in a close distance to the tribe to make sending letters very reasonable, at the very least a phone and one computer with some form of internet should at least be attempted, for the safety of the group and the mental well-being of those involved.  It won't hurt the tribe, and it will keep people happier in the long run if their able to still stay in touch with those who are most important to them outside of the tribe.

Offline Txonari

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Re: Final (hopefully) technology discussion.
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2010, 07:53:01 am »
(post right above this)

I definitely agree with this. After all, the internet is one of humanities greatest creation.

If we close the link completely with us and the internet, we'll be closing the link between us and the greatest information resource available. What if we're faced with a situation that we just don't know how to handle? Or we need information on how to craft something, or information on potential herbal remedies to certain illnesses?

Also, as this idea has probably been tossed around; we could use the internet to create blogs for our tribe. We could use those blogs to help keep in touch with the outside world, and to share our ideas and thoughts with it. And to just spread the message of what we do. Each member who wanted one could have a personal blog on the tribes (eventual) website.

And finally, you have to admit, email and instant messaging is so much more convenient than physical mail. And post offices are quickly becoming obsolete. Eventually, I can imagine the only kind of physical mail that will be shipped is packages. So if that time ever comes, our only option will be email and IM.

I personally think a few computers and an internet connection are necessities, not conveniences. Yes, we could abandon the internet, but we would be abandoning our most important link to society, and potentially one of the greenest technologies available. (The internet itself is green. It's the end points, the way the electricity is created, and the way we set it up that isn't eco-friendly.)
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

 

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