Our Na'vi Tribe (discussion & pre-planning)

[Coyote]

The truth? Maybe it is time to get down in the weeds and see how far people really want to go.

Truth is, what we can realistically do in the near-term future is have a Na'vi camp week or weekend at various agreed-upon points around the world. It would basically be a miniature Convention, just in the forest. I like the idea and think it is cool.

At some point, if this turns out to be popular and sustainable, these "camps" will grow and become "festivals" in their own right. Think of Burning Man or Renfaire, or Woodstock. These are also, basically, Conventions in the wild, just really big ones. Again, that would be great.

When you really start to think about long-term living like this, it is possible, but you have to put in a lot of work and dedication. You can't just build a log cabin somewhere and call it your land, not since about 1890 or so, anyway (at least in the USA).

You can, however, organize some people to buy land together in an area. It can be individual plots, where we all build housing, or we cna pool money and form a LLC (Limited Liability Company) for legal land purchases as a group. This is why I mention the "Kibbutz" idea-- we'd incorporate a collective agricultural area where we'd live and work on it as group shareholders. If someone decided they didn't like the idea and wanted to leave, they'd be entitled to some form of compensation. OTOH, if new people wanted to join, they would "buy into" the holding and have a stake.

Either way (collective property or individual) once we have enough people, we can legally incorporate into a township. Once we do that we are responsible for our own budgets, muninciple services (garbage, water, sewers, police, etc). We'd need either a mayor or at least a city clerk and a council, but the advantages to this are that we can set our own rules, such as "no one within city limits can own a car that gets less than 40 mpg" or something. Although there could be Constitutional challenges to that decree, we could also all sign a city covenant stating that we'd agree to certain principles even if they could technically be challenged.

Incorporating as a township also gives rights to representation in state legislatures, which means providing a representative that can propose laws and vote on bills, which can be very handy when votes come up about, say, regulating emissions or building a new coal plant (both of which have been recent bills dealt with here in Idaho).

So, depending on just how in-depth and long-term people really want to get, it's possible to do all these things. But just running into the forest and setting up camp is, nowadays, referred to as "trespassing" and "vagrancy", and hunting animals for food whenever you're hungry is known by the euphimism of "poaching".

For people in a hurry to get a community started, it may be worthwhile to join alread-established eco-communities and flood them with Na'vi-minded individuals and create a demographic shift. But again, the established inhabitants may get a little uptight at the perceived "invasion".

So, just how far are people willing to go?

[Ikranä mokri]

you make a damn good point Coyote but if we can incorperate an area for 12 years without being moved we can claim squatters rights and own the land without buying. but i do see your point. i think we do have to think very short term at the moment and figure out a way to get together at least once this year at some point maybe.

i dont think that the idea of a township is what we want really. if we all just met at an airport and walked off into the jungle then we overt all those laws but we could in possibility buy an area of rainforest that hasnt been developed and just live there but that would require pooling of money and years of planning.

i think we really need to find out how many people want to do it, what they want to do,wether their ready to comit etc and then over a period of time just slowly work out what were going to do step by step

[Coyote]

Squatter's Rights work to an extent, but at least two principles have to be applied: 1, the legal land owner has not asked you to move and 2, you have shown an "improvement" on the land which includes permananet structures. That's why tents can't be used (at least in most states) for long-term squatting purposes, although they are used in the initial phases.

But it will be very hard to hide even a small community of people building cabins in the middle of nowhere. Someone, from angry ranchers to the Depart of Agriculture or Forest Service, is bound to come along sooner rather than later with a legal injunction.

Also, while doing this, we'll have to comply with legal requirements for things such as wastewater and landfill treatment in relation to habitation. Whether we like to admit it or not, very few of us are going to want to stick with this plan when the 37th sewage pipe ditch has to be dug in the baking hot sun, all with the knowledge that every car that drives up could be a lawyer or Sheriff with a "Cease and Desist" order, making all your work pointless.

It will also be hard to convince young mothers to stick with the encampment when their babies are screaming and cold and there's no electricity-- especially if a county government can claim that there is child endangerment due to sub-standard conditions and we face media attention because of that. A bunch of people living in squalid conditions, learning hunting, because of an ideology? The media tears that stuff up, and the public relations fallout isn't pleasant.

It is best to bite the bullet and go into this legally and above-board, and bring the necessary accoutrements of life along as well-- clean water, power, at minimum.

I really, truly, am not trying to pee in anyone's Cheerios; I love the idea of sustainable living and the notion of forming a theme comunity based on those principles actually is thrilling. But the enthusiasm needs to be tempered with some realistic thought, otherwise it is just musing. What we're thinking of here is actually not new; there are examples in the world where this has happened or is being tried now. It is best to learn from their mistakes and avoid trouble if something like this has a ghost of a chance.

[Ikranä mokri]

good point i have no return arguement excep for this.

if we went to teh amazon rainforest and just deciced to live there seeming as teh conditions would be more like pandora. and mothers with young ( like really young or pregnat women) shouldnt come to start with (not being sexist) because like you said it could cause a few problems

[Kisora]

I might be just irrational right now, but count me in. if you need anything i can provide, just ask.

[sezeatan]

The truth? Maybe it is time to get down in the weeds and see how far people really want to go.

CONTINUES..

Katlxí everybody!

I am pretty new at the forum and already loving it so. I feel embraced by the Na'vi's world and do share lots of thoughts and feelings toward this people and culture that represent, in fact, many of native peoples of the past and present which try to survive with great effort in the XXI Century.  Since 14 years old my belief is in the Great Mother, the Goddess, like the Celts used to honor this overwhelming energy that are within we and all living beings  and I was deeply touched to see it put in Avatar so truely and beautifully by James Cameron.

I don't mean to bring a polemic discussion, but I just would like to share my opinion.  I was quite shocked to see some people discussing here about living for real  like the Na'vi and, though I respect this option, I don't think people did understand what  really was the message of the movie. Not that I am the one with the truth, once it has so many interpretations according  people's background,  culture, etc, but I guess we can try to understand better and share a common understanding of the movie.

That is, the Na'vi are aliens with a very athletic and strong body, which permits all kinds of skills, even flying or falling from high heights. They seem to have a thick skin because anytime it seems that they are bothered by insects or things like t his. They just exist smoothly and painless almost, as you can see.  They are 'cosmically' built in a sense of physically experiencing this connection with the Goddess, Ewya.  They are creatures of the forest as their natural way of life. In our real world, if you are right now typing on a computer and discussing about leaving all behind to live in a tribe, so you are not a creature of the forest at all!!! This doesn't compromise your connection with nature, but I just think it sounds hypocrite to try to be like the Na'vi and not pay attention at all to our real world because the answer lies here within.  We ALREADY have many tribes like the Na'vi... for those who live in America, in the US, try investigate about their own native indigenous tribes and see how they try to maintain their culture of respect to Mother Nature, even when they were obliged to be stuck in white men reservations and not being able to hunt anymore. How many other native tribes worldwide were sacrificed in the name of progress and the advance of technology  I am from Brazil and my father was born in the Amazon state, where the Rain Forest is, and believe me, Pandora is just there. If you want to experience Pandora for real, go there and see if you last a day... and there is an estimative that there still remain about 2000 native tribes that NEVER HAD contact with white men. This is so crazy, but it is true.  So, we have the Na'vi, so to speak,  in our own world. The Celts and many other native peoples always had this fantastic connection  and the connaissance of the flow of energy among all living beings  from old times. They lived it and some still live it. This way of living in brotherhood, in nature, is all around the world. Look for yours first and see the connection. You don't have to learn to use a bow and arrow to be a real Na'vi because the message is all beyond that. The message is about respecting, sharing, understand your brothers and sisters – the humankind – and, most of all, understanding that we are not alone, not in the planet, not in the universe; understand that the Earth is our home and also a living being; and that men created civilization from scratch and now we have a world with many cultural and artistic wonders, but also many dreadful and horrible creations; see that we lost this connection with ourselves and nature and this is the crucial point. It doesn't matter if you can use a bow or a nuclear weapon, what matters is your intention behind; what matters is whether you are in tune with your superior mental state, which feels what is best, or if you are in tune with your reason, which sometimes take you away of the right thing to do. You just have to cultivate your inner side to preserve the balance of life, the balance of you as an individual to do what is good and fair to your kind as you do to yourself.

If you want to create a community and really live in it, great, go ahead. But remember to cultivate the Na'vi spirit in yourselves, in the daily life, in doing something to better our world and take it to the next level.  Do it in your own house, alone or with others, try to leave a 'eco-friendly' kind of life, watching out what you put inside and outside you.   You will start to be a Na'vi acting like this. Nowadays Science and Religion are speaking the same language, the very same language the ancient native peoples always spoke and speak till our days. We just have to listen to it, we just have to try to rescue this truth from deep inside as we so clearly understood it from the movie. This change must be mental and spiritual before being physical. And this change is for life, it has to be a belief in what you are and what you want the world to be. I am not here to lecture anyone because I myself am in this same path and I was totally thrilled and beyond happiness to see what I always believed in so clearly put in front of me, and even sharing a bond with JC. Many years ago I wrote a single paper with a story of a planet, threaten by a menace,  a world led by 12 ancient, tall like the Na'vi, with brilliant black skin and golden eyes, but the natives of the planet had the same golden eyes, though with a blue pale skin. I don't have this piece of paper to prove anything anymore, but I know inside myself that I had some kind of answer through AVATAR and I do know that many, many people, like the hundreds in here, had the same connection with it exactly because we are connected somehow, we just need to learn again how we were before. Nature is perfect in its own way. It functions as it should... the animals and seasons are there in a synchronized path, a cycle of life and death to be life again. A constant flow of energy, transforming lives all time.  We, somehow, got disconnect from it and this is our call to achieve again this connection. We have the power within, we are gods with power of creating a world like we want, not the one imposed to us. You don't have to choose to live in conflict or violence or lack of hope. So each one  has the  inner power to change it and get all of life we can get, live life in its plenitude as the Na'vi live.

[Kisora]

well spoken sezeatan, if a little elaborate. =p

Don't worry though, i don't think they will get all crazy about it, we are sorta matured... um right?

[sezeatan]

well spoken sezeatan, if a little elaborate. =p

Don't worry though, i don't think they will get all crazy about it, we are sorta matured... um right?

Hi, Kisora.

Thanks. Sorry for my English mistakes, I am a non-native English speaker, so I just wrote the text in a rush, a couple of minutes ago, and posted it here... lol 

[Kisora]

well spoken sezeatan, if a little elaborate. =p

Don't worry though, i don't think they will get all crazy about it, we are sorta matured... um right?

Hi, Kisora.

Thanks. Sorry for my English mistakes, I am a non-native English speaker, so I just wrote the text in a rush, a couple of minutes ago, and posted it here... lol 

Its ok, and for a non-native English speaker, i find it curious you can compose such a long message =]

Anyway, nice to know you have enjoyed being on these forums too, as i too have...

Back on topic, how many people are willing to go through with this plan anyway? I will do my best to be a part of it... 

[Zalorticus]

I would go through with it. I mean, it would be quite hard, but I adapt easily.

[sezeatan]

well spoken sezeatan, if a little elaborate. =p

Don't worry though, i don't think they will get all crazy about it, we are sorta matured... um right?

Hi, Kisora.

Thanks. Sorry for my English mistakes, I am a non-native English speaker, so I just wrote the text in a rush, a couple of minutes ago, and posted it here... lol 

Its ok, and for a non-native English speaker, i find it curious you can compose such a long message =]

Anyway, nice to know you have enjoyed being on these forums too, as i too have...

Back on topic, how many people are willing to go through with this plan anyway? I will do my best to be a part of it... 

I would say I am fluent in English  - but still not a native speaker - and it is easy for me to speak another languages, which I enjoy a  lot. This is why I became very interested in learning the Na'vi, which I am already finding quite difficult... lol  

[Ikranä mokri]

sezeatan  i agree and disagree with you at the same time. at least with the first half of what you said its only recently that people have become "soft" to put it bluntly. with teh creation of Tv and all these health and safety rules coming into play it means that what our bodies would normally be used for, which is by the way teh same sort of thing as teh Na'Vi if you look back to times when we were hunter gatherers and our bodies havent changed much. its more about changing a mind set than saying oh our bodies are not up to it.

i have spent years outside climbing trees and swimming in lakes skating on frozen ponds camping for ages with just me a map and a 4.10 poaching shotgun and a sleeping bag. so id like to think that i could hack quite allot even though i am here sitting behind a computer talking about it

i do understand where you are coming from but before you can judge a whole group of people you must know each and every detail of their lives

and im definately ready to go through with it that is if we actually do it but i have a feeling that people wont

[sezeatan]

sezeatan  i agree and disagree with you at the same time. its only recently that people have become "soft" to put it bluntly. with teh creation of Tv and all these health and safety rules coming into play it means that what our bodies would normally be used for, which is by the way teh same sort of thing as teh Na'Vi if you look back to times when we were hunter gatherers and our bodies havent changed much. its more about changing a mind set than saying oh our bodies are not up to it.

i have spent years outside climbing trees and swimming in lakes skating on frozen ponds camping for ages with just me a map and a 4.10 poaching shotgun and a sleeping bag. so id like to think that i could hack quite allot even though i am here sitting behind a computer talking about it

i do understand where you are coming from but before you can judge a whole group of people you must know each and every detail of their lives

Twonyu Ikranä,

now I am the one to agree with you. I didn't mean that 'our bodies are not up to it', but I meant that rather than radicalize physically to first have a deep change in mind. And sorry. I didn't want to sound partial and  didn't want to judge this or that people, I just think that the way humankind in general is behaving is not nice, not going with the flow of nature. And I quoted some examples because I do have a passion for North American native tribes and it is just terribly sad to see what was done to them. In South America, the Spanish did even worse to the Inca people and others. In Brazil, the Portuguese were 'lighter' somehow because they blended with many native tribes here, but also did a lot of harm too. We can take many other examples like the Aborigines in Australia and many African tribes.

I see you are the kind of 'forest guy' and still someone enjoying the confortable of our modern times. This is what I meant. I do think we can enjoy both, without guilt and extracting the best from the two sides. I just expressed my fear of people leaving all behind without measuring the consequences and not understand that the change, to be a na'vi indeed, will be through your understanding inside and not only because you can live in the bush and use a bow.

See, even to have a land or buy a land to create and settle a community, you would have to pass through all the burocracy of daily life, which eventually, cross our path anyway. It kinda reminds me the movie "The Village", of Shamalayan, and it points out that we can not escape from certain things. A wall of concrete or grass will not stop things from happening. Thus, we focus and change our reality instead of focusing on the kind of wall we would have to build.   

[Coyote]

Well, the type of lifestyle I'm talking about isn't a walled-off community; rahter I'm just looking at the legalities and difficulties of doing this "for real", without having to live a life of un-necessary suffering and hardship. It can be fun to live Medieval-style for a weekend or two at a theme park, but not forever-- especially when there is no need to  live in a manner that means "old age" will top out at 45.

There's a reason why human society worked hard to get out of that lifestyle.

I would hope that a eco-aware village would be very open to the public so that visitors can be shown that "this works"; that people can live on the Earth and not be jerks while doing so. But in order to sell the notion of living responsibly, we have to show that it can be done without having to give up things like medecine, warmth, comfort and so on. Otherwise, no other people will want to do it, and the land will continue to be despoiled by the majority of the people who won't give up their comforts.

Now, if people spend too much time watching TV instead of going outside, no village or dream society in the world can stop them. Anyone can get up and go outside any time they want to, nothing is stopping them. That's their fault, not society.

[sezeatan]

Well, the type of lifestyle I'm talking about isn't a walled-off community; rahter I'm just looking at the legalities and difficulties of doing this "for real", without having to live a life of un-necessary suffering and hardship. It can be fun to live Medieval-style for a weekend or two at a theme park, but not forever-- especially when there is no need to  live in a manner that means "old age" will top out at 45.

There's a reason why human society worked hard to get out of that lifestyle.

I would hope that a eco-aware village would be very open to the public so that visitors can be shown that "this works"; that people can live on the Earth and not be jerks while doing so. But in order to sell the notion of living responsibly, we have to show that it can be done without having to give up things like medecine, warmth, comfort and so on. Otherwise, no other people will want to do it, and the land will continue to be despoiled by the majority of the people who won't give up their comforts.

Now, if people spend too much time watching TV instead of going outside, no village or dream society in the world can stop them. Anyone can get up and go outside any time they want to, nothing is stopping them. That's their fault, not society.

Ohhhh NOW I see your point, Coyote, and can totally agree with it. 

[Txontaw]

I realize that it's extremely unrealistic that we will actually be able to move somewhere permanently, but I think it would still be fun to get together as a group and have a camping trip or something. It could be our version of AvatarCon, where it's supposed to take place.

[Ikranä mokri]

oh i get you now sezeatan , that time it was me who judged (see were all guilty of it) yeah i like to think that i have a balance between my lifestyles but none of teh people i know are really into what i do especially the girls who hate anything to do with dirt haha.

irayo for your understanding ulte Eywa ngahu

[Tawioang]

Well, the type of lifestyle I'm talking about isn't a walled-off community; rahter I'm just looking at the legalities and difficulties of doing this "for real", without having to live a life of un-necessary suffering and hardship. It can be fun to live Medieval-style for a weekend or two at a theme park, but not forever-- especially when there is no need to  live in a manner that means "old age" will top out at 45.

There's a reason why human society worked hard to get out of that lifestyle.

I would hope that a eco-aware village would be very open to the public so that visitors can be shown that "this works"; that people can live on the Earth and not be jerks while doing so. But in order to sell the notion of living responsibly, we have to show that it can be done without having to give up things like medecine, warmth, comfort and so on. Otherwise, no other people will want to do it, and the land will continue to be despoiled by the majority of the people who won't give up their comforts.

Now, if people spend too much time watching TV instead of going outside, no village or dream society in the world can stop them. Anyone can get up and go outside any time they want to, nothing is stopping them. That's their fault, not society.

I think I see your point there, I'm actually one for living in a type of lifestyle with no electricity, hunting for food and living a tribal lifestyle. Well Twonyu Ikranä, "and im definately ready to go through with it that is if we actually do it but i have a feeling that people wont" I am too, just to let you know   

[bagget00]

Well this whole thread started off with people wanting to go out and camp a few times for a week or more to feel like the Na'vi and go from there. It was never about secluding ourselves from the outside world or shoving our heads into the sand. I was looking forward to it because it would be fun. Someone even mentioned that we shouldn't go without power and heat just to be safe but to live a friendlier life and show others how. We would be a teaching community. I don't want to just go out randomly and struggle to survive in an Avatar-esk world. But a community of friends who live clean and green could show others they can live that way too.

[Coyote]

I'm all for annual camps, about a week or a weekend long. In fact, that is the most realistic thing we can do pretty much right now, all it requires is coordinating people's schedules and agreeing on camp sites.

I recommend people go to the Meet-Ups board at the top of the forum and start entering their information and people can start making plans. The Meet-Ups board is new, made just yesterday during the forum reorganization, and only a few people have entered their info.