Power sources

Started by Key'ìl Nekxetse, November 23, 2010, 12:53:36 PM

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Key'ìl Nekxetse

I've spent a while thinking about possible electricity sources, I doubt we'll need much, but enough to run a computer would probably be the minimum.

If we want to avoid using electricity from outside we have to generate our own. To do this we need to convert a source of energy into electrical energy.
Sources of energy we have access to are likely to be:

  • solar
  • wind
  • water
  • human
  • biomass
Solar
Solar power would require panels, which are expensive, large and fragile. Manufacturing solar panels causes a fairly large amount of pollution.
After some research I estimate panels will cost at least $400.
The supply will be less than 100 watts. If you don't understand what that means, my netbook uses 40 watts. In other words we might be able to run a netbook on a hot day. In winter we would be lucky to run it for an hour each day.
Wind
Wind power relies on turbines, which are likely to cost more than $10 000. The output will not be constant, but is likely to provide 100 watts on average. When it works, it should provide more power than solar, but we need wind for it to work. It will also be high up and will be seen from a long way away and make a noise.
Water
A water wheel should provide power while there is water moving, so power from a river will be continual. They can provide a large amount of energy if enough water is used, but will have to built from scratch. This shouldn't be a large problem as any materials should work, except we will have to spend time on it. The cost depends on what we use to make the wheel.
Human
Human power isn't used much at the moment, but could be useful. The amount of power produced is small but with multiple people it can be increased. It should be cheap and quite easy to set up, but it would take time for people to generate power and would be tiring. I think powering a computer might be difficult.
Biomass
We could generate power by burning plant matter and generating steam. This should mean we could run a generator but it would mean burning a large amount of wood, which would quickly become a problem and generate pollution. I think the amount of power generated would be quite small.
Sotrage
Most methods would mean using large batteries (lead acid batteries provide cheap storage but tend to fail after a few years). To store enough power for a few days will cost around $500 (presuming it was only to power a netbook ;)).

I don't know what the best solution is, but using a mixture of things should increase reliability. Water would be good, but rivers might be difficult to find. Anything containing moving parts will wear out, possibly within a few years, and replacing the parts could mean buying new ones.
I didn't look into generators because I doubt fuel will be available and we don't want to cause pollution.

I think members who wanted to run multiple PCs will have to find a way around the power required! :(

Ideas?
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Txonari

I think water turbines would be the most consistent and reliable. Providing, as you said, that the tribe is set up near somewhere with a river. Personally I think a river/stream is a necessity regardless; we need water, of course. And traveling tens of miles to get water would be really inconvenient.
All I want is a single thing worth fighting for.

Predict

In my opinion, Micro hydro is the way to go, without a doubt.

I think we can to discount solar because of our inability to repair any panels (I say inability, it's just very difficult). Wind is less predictable than either and the structures by far the largest and most intrusive. Biomass, you have already hit most of the issues.

Micro hydro has the most predictable and stable output, reducing the need for storage and is far simpler to repair. A wooden water wheel (although massively less efficient than a good turbine) could be repaired with local materials and the electrical side of things is practically 19th century. The parts would be easy to store and repair possible with minimal training. Okay I sound like a salesman, but it's my personal favorite. Check out these for an example of the modern stuff: http://www.segen.co.uk/eng/hydro/turbines.htm Quite a different system but it gives an idea of scale.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

I also like hydro. :D
I like technology I could build and repair!
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Tsyal Maktoyu

What about biofuels (or was that also implied by biomass)? We should have some gasoline on hand if we need to power any vehicles, and if done correctly is a rather clean source of power.


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Key'ìl Nekxetse

#5
I was thinking of both biofuel and wood. Burnable things from plants. ;)
Just reading up on hydro, according to one source, we're actually interested in 'pico-hydro'. Apparently that includes generation under 5KW. There's some very technical stuff and complex designs, but really two rings with slats between should work fairly well.

Photovoltaic panels are nasty to make and keep working, but what about using the sun to heat water and/or cook? With a plastic bottle, the sun can help to sterilise water, too. 8)
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Predict

Tomato tomato. Sub 100kW is a big range. I was basically thinking micro=village, pico='bucket and some tubes' but you're right, our power requirements are more in line with that of a house. A few kW should be ample. That's about one person's requirement in your average house, crazy stuff. Isn't part of the debate with photovoltaics whether carbon savings can outweigh the damage done during production.

Before finalizing the scale we will need to decide on our actual usage (not really the issue here I know). Everything electrical will be imported so it's a bit of a moral issue as to how far we rely on it. I'd love to see what I could rig up with local materials, but I doubt we could produce anything truly useful. Maybe some carbon arc lamps...

Txontaw

IMHO, I think a combination of several would provide constant power no matter what happens.

QuoteSolar
Solar power would require panels, which are expensive, large and fragile. Manufacturing solar panels causes a fairly large amount of pollution.
After some research I estimate panels will cost at least $400.
The supply will be less than 100 watts. If you don't understand what that means, my netbook uses 40 watts. In other words we might be able to run a netbook on a hot day. In winter we would be lucky to run it for an hour each day.

Actually, not anymore. There are several alternates in development, which are both cleaner to produce and provide more power.

QuoteWind
Wind power relies on turbines, which are likely to cost more than $10 000. The output will not be constant, but is likely to provide 100 watts on average. When it works, it should provide more power than solar, but we need wind for it to work. It will also be high up and will be seen from a long way away and make a noise.

Again, there are many more options with wind. There are many DIY kits that are quiet and cheap. This would obviously not go well by itself, since it does need wind to work. However, there are quiet and cheap options out there.

QuoteWater
A water wheel should provide power while there is water moving, so power from a river will be continual. They can provide a large amount of energy if enough water is used, but will have to built from scratch. This shouldn't be a large problem as any materials should work, except we will have to spend time on it. The cost depends on what we use to make the wheel.

Water is definitely the best option. It's available pretty much always available, and wheels/turbines are really easy to get/make.

QuoteHuman
Human power isn't used much at the moment, but could be useful. The amount of power produced is small but with multiple people it can be increased. It should be cheap and quite easy to set up, but it would take time for people to generate power and would be tiring. I think powering a computer might be difficult.

Definitely not going to work. It takes too much work to light a bulb, let alone power a computer.

QuoteBiomass
We could generate power by burning plant matter and generating steam. This should mean we could run a generator but it would mean burning a large amount of wood, which would quickly become a problem and generate pollution. I think the amount of power generated would be quite small.

Yeah, this is a really big polluter, so I don't think it'd work.

QuoteStorage
Most methods would mean using large batteries (lead acid batteries provide cheap storage but tend to fail after a few years). To store enough power for a few days will cost around $500 (presuming it was only to power a netbook).

Batteries are a huge polluter, though rechargables could work for emergencies.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Tsleng Keye'ung

I agree with Txontaw, a water wheel near our main river, and A solar panel maybe. But to have rechargeable batteries you need an outlet.

Txontaw

The rechargeable batteries would be powered by the other power sources, and therefore they are reserved for emergencies, if we lose all power.
"You're not in Kansas anymore. You're on Pandora, Ladies and Gentlemen." - Colonel Quaritch


Tsleng Keye'ung

Ohhhh, now I see what you mean. Thats a good idea then.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

Batteries are important to absorb power when we don't use any and release it when we need to, aswell as emergencies.
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Tonbogiri

The largest rechargeable batteries that I know of are car batteries - not completely environmentally friendly, but I think that the fact we should be recharging them with eco-power will offset this. Remember, it's not just about how many volts you can make - the trick is the number of watts - using a bicycle to power up a battery to full would boil a kettle for about 3.5 minutes - not much, eh?


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Key'ìl Nekxetse

Kettles are very power hungry, mind you.
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Tonbogiri

If we wanted to power things like a computer or satellite phone, does anybody know how much electricity is needed? A computer would obviously be higher - but it may be necessary for contact/paying bills.


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Kerame Pxel Nume

Quote from: Tonbogiri on November 29, 2010, 03:54:59 AM
If we wanted to power things like a computer or satellite phone, does anybody know how much electricity is needed? A computer would obviously be higher - but it may be necessary for contact/paying bills.
A laptop consumes as little as 50W top. Is you can supply 100W, 19V you can charge and work on it simultanously. Commonplace PV panels are rated at about 150W. So powering a computer is no big deal.

However I'd recommend looking into a concentrated solar power plant: A number of heliostat mirrors (can be easily built DIY from RC servos, a little mechanics and bathroom mirrors), focusing the sun onto a thermal reciver with a Sterling engine. With only little effort one can easily harvest several kW of electricity. The excess heat can be used for purifying water, heating, etc.

I'm not the guy for a tribe living, but if people of the tribe or eco village want construction plans for a CSP stirling power plant they may ask me for it.

Teyl Maktoyu Ayfìwopxä

I'm not using bathrooms I'll be running around naked in the rain XD jk but I'd find another way to 'shower' (a)

Predict

Stirling engines and kilowatts of power production don't usually go hand in hand though. When it comes to heat and light for water purifying, cooking, and general illumination we shouldn't dismiss recent innovations in controlled rapid oxidation a.k.a. Fire.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

Fire really is useful, but not great for electricity, it's much more efficient to heat things directly.
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Kerame Pxel Nume

Quote from: 'Eylan Ayikranä on December 08, 2010, 01:45:21 PM
Stirling engines and kilowatts of power production don't usually go hand in hand though.
Oh, they do. Don't think in the dimensions of those toy engines. Take a look at these:
http://www.stirling.dk/
They start with 35kW output power up to 140kW.