Author Topic: Project New Wings  (Read 1123 times)

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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Project New Wings
« on: October 03, 2010, 11:36:26 pm »
Despite a low turn out, the meeting with Project New Wings (previously Anononia) went off very well. Many ideas were thrown around of possible cooperations. Both sides are left with questions however and I would like to be able to straighten things out with them (and a little with myself), so im gonna try and create something similar to the mission statement but much longer and documenting the growth and evolution of our community and a cause (someone's gonna have to fill me in on the month or so in the beginning i wasnt here yet). so... here it goes!


 i just got lazy there with the conclusion it's late and my writing skills have diminished thanks to my long absence. someone else needs to just take what i wrote and rewrite it around the general idea. Basically, that was s*** and i dont blame you if you skipped down here just to see what bullocks i was gonna throw at you down here.

 As for what we have worked out so far as partnerships we have definately agreed to helping with this Wiki that was created by their project leader Jeffrey. A proposition of mine that Jeffrey (be prepared to see that name around here a lot more) found at least interesting if not plausible was that we might join with their cause completely.

 Now, before you start mashing your keyboard in disgust of my compromisation (yeah i think i just made that up) of our ideals I'm going to try and describe exactly what i mean by this. What we would do is become a sub-section of their movement instead of a sub-section of Learn Na'vi (we would still maintain a presence on the forums here ideally). So we would help their group just as if we were part of it and when the time came we would move to the place that is decided on finally by the group at Project New Wings as one of their "citizens". We would live exactly as we have always desired to, this time with little or no hassle by the government and with much greater ease with the mutual help offered by the project. This idea requires much coordination and some pretty game changing decision making and as much as i would love to see this happen, I'm sure there are a few of you who will have many issues with it.

 Basically give me your opinions, feedback, and ideas on anything that i have mentioned in this jumbled mess of mindless mumblings. Also if you have any questions about their group make it a point as my mind went blank when i tried to think of some important questions to ask them.
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Offline Txonari

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2010, 07:18:18 am »
Sorry I couldn't be there. I had unexpected plans...
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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2010, 01:32:41 pm »
Sorry I wasn't there also. I'm not sure I even heard about this until after it had happened.

Personally, I am quite opposed to the idea of becoming a sub-section. Largely because they don't appear to be any further along than we are, admittedly they have made decisions quickly but that isn't necessarily a good thing. I am concerned at the significant disparity between our two goals, theirs is much more individual centred, I would be concerned they would be incompatible.

I also don't see why we can't simply collaborate. If anything we are the more developed group, although we are at a similar stage regarding location we have firmly developed core beliefs and a relatively large base of members. I am also concerned that they have underestimated the difficulty of forming a sovereign nation, countries aren't inherently well behaved and respectful, consider the number of international treaties required to keep everything in order and the conflicts that even these cannot prevent. Even if one country declared us independent that would not guarantee the respect and acknowledgement of the wider international community, and unless we have something significant to contribute I don't see why they would bother.   

Offline Tsteu'itan

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2010, 02:42:10 pm »
Sorry I wasn't there, also.  I haven't had much time lately because of work and my sister losing her job.  :<

Something to remember about being a Sovereign Nation, I believe that if you are to become a Sovereign Nation, you have to be recognized by the UN.  Collaboration could be a good thing for both groups, but they do have such separate goals, I don't think it would be fair to either community to consider one the subset of the other.  It would just lead to eventual conflict in the ranks when decisions had to be made.

That's not to say that all neotribal groups are different from one another.  I think it's important to remember that many of us are just the same as the others, it's the way we go about doing things that may be a little different.  Open communication between us should be embraced and encouraged.  :)  We're all in this together, trying to make a better world.

Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2010, 09:05:26 pm »
Sounds like it was an interesting encounter. Though I agree with 'Eylan, I don't think we should become a subsidy of their group. If there is going to be cooperation, I think it should be mutual (or even our group being the dominant group, because we're larger). One of my biggest concerns is the difference in our ideologies. They're more of an individualist, laissez faire group with modern technology, and we're more of a tribal, primitivist group (though technology could range from pure primitivism to something similar to PNW depending on who you ask). One time where this could become a concern is when it comes to buying land. They might be more akin to a place where they could support more development, or widespread farming, while we are looking for areas that would support hunting. Things might get ugly down the road if they begin moving too far from what we envision, if we end up becoming their subsidy.

Though by all means we should cooperate with them whenever possible, as both groups have at least one thing in common - change the world. :)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 09:08:46 pm by Tsyal Maktoyu »


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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2010, 11:25:08 pm »
It's very clear that you guys have to speak with them yourselves as you cant really comprehend the intricacies of their project. By joining them we wouldn't be any less in charge of our ideas and how our tribe works than they would be in leading their other citizens. We wouldn't be submitting completely to their will; we would be equals and both of our goals would flourish separate from each other.

 It would be the same as becoming citizens of the country we move into only this time we can influence the country to help our goals while it is being created from scratch. And let's not make this a you-know-what size contest, who cares how far they are compared to us if we both benefit from a merging? Do you think they will just take completely over after all the help we provide? Especially considering that we will very likely be a relatively large group within their community. The area they are almost certain on is almost perfect for our desired climate and conditions. They dont have any kind of anarcho-capitalistic views leading their movement, I doubt their strong ideals would allow the country to degenerate into being ran by the people with the most "money". I put "money" in quotations because they will have a largely barter-style economy. From what i can tell the whole laissez faire policy (which they don't apply exclusively to economics) is exactly what our tribe needs, to be left completely to our own devices and to not be hassled by the government.

 I see no functional issues with such an extreme form of cooperation. All i see is an irrational (maybe not so irrational, but at least unfounded) fear that we could be stripped of our identity and assimilate or the idea that our dream would just die out. Nobody in this community would let any of those things occur and nobody in the New Wings community would ever wish for those things to happen, especially on their accord.

 I probably have opened pandora's box here but I really believe my idea would be a great step forward for both of our communities. It's definately an opportunity that should be explored more thoroughly with less pessimism.

 There I go becoming the one everyone disagrees with, let me have it. ::)
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Offline Tsteu'itan

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2010, 11:33:50 pm »
No one is being pessimistic as far as I can see, they're just stating that they feel it would be best that yes, we cooperate with one another and communicate and help each other plan, but that the ideas are different enough that perhaps it would be best to keep them as separate entities.  As I mentioned, the way the groups are set up is enough of a difference that if one had a disagreement with the other, then it could cause issues.  Not necessarily severe ones, but ones that could be avoided.  Even the organizational ways of setting things up that they have are completely different.  It's not a bad thing, it's just different goals and things that fit some people better then others.

At the same time, just because the tribe wants to stay separate entities doesn't mean they can't find a way to coexist in the physical world.  The same way the tribe considered joining the two Na'vi-inspired groups a while back and it was mentioned that they be kept separate but close enough that they could trade amongst each other, there's nothing to say that the New Wings couldn't also be brought into the group and make the community even larger then it had been before.  They could still be separate - one working more on a tribal governmental setup and the other working more with a peaceful-ecoanarchist setup - and still work together when they wanted or needed.

Offline Esmond

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2010, 09:57:14 am »
Hi guys, I wasn't there for the meeting since it was 2am in the morning for me. Thus I'm going to comment on this from a viewer's standpoint.

Well, it is undeniable that some sort of a merger sounds practical. It could speed things up for us, get us to our dream faster. However, rewarding things in life often require a lot of time. Anyway from my point of view, I would support a close collaboration but I won't support being a part of what they are. Different people with the same ideologies can solve conflicts rather easily at times. However, different people with different ideologies don't often go along well. Its only a matter of time when there will be conflicts of interest.

We don't want to go down ten or twenty years only to be driven out.

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Offline Tonbogiri

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 04:58:29 pm »
I agree with Esmond. While I'm not sure we will be "driven out" as such, just think about it - we conceived this idea months ago. We've been through ups and downs already, but we're finally beginning to make slight progress. It may seems childish to say so, but I want this idea to remain ours!

In terms of research/logistics, I agree that we need all the help we can get. But we are still the Real Life Na'Vi Tribe - and I never want to forget that.


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Offline 'Itan Atxur

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 08:40:26 pm »
Well, Letxuma, when I first read your post I almost completely disagreed. But when I sit back and think about it, I'd rather compromise (which we may not have to do anyways) than have our idea simply die (which... also may not happen anyways). It may very well be a partnership worth looking into.


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Offline Letxuma Swizaw

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2010, 09:35:33 pm »
The idea would not be any less ours. there would be no compromise of project goals. there would be no differences at all except that we would have a stable backing to our community. If that backing happens to be another community who cares? It's hard to explain what i meant exactly about merging and what the outcome of merging would be, so I will use a hypothetical situation to do so better.

Let's assume Project New Wings was already complete by the time we discovered them and they were situated in the Argentina location that they are strongly considering right now and their policies and social infrastructure are complete. Given their goals now, would that not be the perfect group/organisation/government to contact regarding our movement to see if they would help us or even just welcome us? All I'm suggesting is that we do exactly that; the only difference is, their project is not complete yet. They are perfect for us and we are just the kind of citizens that their ideas aim to protect.
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Offline Esmond

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2010, 11:08:31 pm »
The way I would think of it is like this, take for example I just bought a house and you're homeless. I give you an empty room to stay. Few weeks later, someone comes and offers me to rent the room for say a few hundred dollars.

I might or might not kick you out for the benefit but if I really do decide to do so, do you really have any power to object?

I'm not trying to judge the NW org's character (because I can't) but what I'm trying to say is that if something like that does happen, we'd be in a very powerless position.

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Offline Tsyal Maktoyu

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2010, 11:09:06 pm »
Well, if it's a mutually supported partnership, that's perfectly fine, but we've got to keep it that way. Neither group should end up in charge of the other, that will just lead to trouble down the road. We still need to keep our own identity, just like PNW keeps their own identity, and we still need to keep our own goals/ideologies, just like they will keep their own goals/ideologies.

A good example of what I mean is like airline alliances, like the Star or One World alliance. The airlines are all in close relationships with each other, and have logistical commonalities that they use to support each other (such as flight codesharing), but they all remain independent and soveirgn of each other.

That's what we need, an alliance.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:18:52 pm by Tsyal Maktoyu »


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Offline Tonbogiri

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Re: Project New Wings
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2010, 07:58:43 am »
We could form some kind of world coalition for all those organisations working on sustainable living! We could all help each other out as Tsayal said, but retain our individuality.


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