The dry run - lets get going!

[Tsleng Keye'ung]

and pollution from any engine goes against what we're trying to do

[hemmond]

I haven't said, that we'll fly every day, bud I know, that engines are polluting much, but, the boat is almost the same... Maybe if we use a wind-boat, with engine as backup... But I'm not sure about that.

[Key'ìl Nekxetse]

A boat should use much less energy, it only needs to move, not hold itself above the ground.
Using wind would be great, I hadn't thought of that

[hemmond]

It's slower way of transportation->You need less energy for same time than heli, but you need more time to get to the another location on the boat than if you fly by heli. Heli needs more energy for less time. Ship need less energy but more time (require future research)... But Sailboat can be pushed forward by wind... if he'll blow the right direction. In other case... ship'll need engine.

[Key'ìl Nekxetse]

Wind with an engine for times when the wind fails would be quite good.

[hemmond]

But then... the village and tribe will have to be somewhere close to sea... Or... do you want to move many kilos of material on your back? Or moving material from ship for a whole day?

[Tiaothi]

Just in regards to power and alternative energies. Solar and biogas would be the best alternatives. Whatever waste is produced could be run through a digester and used to produce a decent clean burning for cooking, water heating, and possibly running a small converted engine to run a genset.

Power requirements is another thing. You'd need to work out what will be on an essential circuit, and what is deemed non-essential in the event of an electrical breakdown. Maintenance spares, and basic tools to repair whatever breaks would need to be on standby and under lock and key so they aren't used for purposes beyond their intention.

Another factor is refrigeration of medication, and other medical requirements.

I notice a lot of people are leaning towards satellites for communication, while the quality is fine, it is also prone to signal fade from heat and adverse atmospheric conditions. I would also recommend adding an HF radio with a decent linear amplifier and a decent longwire antenna. A longwire is ideal, it means that it's not going to get killed in the event of a storm. And at worst, a new aerial can be reconstructed in about an hour if required.

Just a few ideas that I had milling through my head.

[Na'vin Nos'feratxu]

Okay, theres something I need to know.

When I was out "surviving" a while back, I was alone, I had no modern tools other than a knife.
I had no electricity, no medications, nothing but a knife....

My question is: if/when we go to a destination to live as a tribe, are we going to have all these modern conveniences?
The reason I ask is if we do, it wouldnt be hardly any different than what we do today.
Only difference is we would be growing/catching our food....

I understand completely the lethality of Nature. People could/can get hurt, and vehicles/other modern conveniences would be necessary.
But at what point, would we develop our own way of life?
Our own methods of care, and methods of survival without modern convenience?
Solar panels? electricity? houses? planes? helicopters? gliders???    Really?

If anything, we should only have a radio....with a coast guard on standby for quick evac.
Medications: Snake venom kits, antibiotics, and gauze, needle and thread.
A Cantine and a knife.....

All this can easily fit in a backpack. of each person....Which would supply us just fine.
In the case of low supply we could order more if needed...

Living on the ground is a no-no...so houses arent acceptable. Living in the "trees" is a very secure location.
You can span a hammock up high in the tree of choice, which will keep other potential dangerous animals from bothering you.
Your smell wont drift on the ground, it will go to the sky.
Snakes, coons, bears, spiders or any other potential threat wont notice you if you 15+ft in the air.

using a boat with an engine wont suffice. Boat engines require frequent maintenance. as most water craft engines are cooled by the water it rides through. A sea craft engine is the worst, as the salt can cause problems. Not to mention fuel, oil etc etc.

What Im saying is, having any sort of modern day convenience wouldnt feel any different than where I am today.

[Tonbogiri]

Hey Na'vin, valid points.

It's great to hear that you have experience of living in the wild - if you don't mind me asking, how long did you spend?

In terms of your points:

We have mentioned all of the above "conveniences" for the sole purpose of making our tribe possible. We have realised, as the tribe has "matured", that what we are aiming to do is very difficult legally speaking. We would need to have some form of communications to the outside world, and sadly a satellite phone is not enough anymore. There are, somewhere among us, two game designers who are planning to supply our tribe with a steady stream of revenue once we are set up (to deal with any taxes we may incur), and they needed a computer - which we would also need to help deal with expenses and the like. To power this computer, we would need electricity - and we aim to get this in entirely renewable ways.

I should point out that the original plan was for there to be an eco-village (with modern conveniences, but sustainable energy) and the tribe to be seperate (total removal from modern tech). I hope that this will still be happening, but it looks like a true eco village may not be possible, and so the "emergency building" mentioned in the plan will have to do.

To prevent us being shut down immediately, we will need some form of modern medical help onsite or not far away. I do agree, however, that as time passes we should move away from relying on these things - what kind of tribe would we be after all?

Boats without engines? Ocean-going canoes are used often by island tribes. I am sure that should we need them, we could make it so!

In terms of buildings, this will depend on our final location, and also on the results from the advanced party. If there are dangerous animals around, such as bears, then our habitation would need to reflect this. Living in the trees has it's drawback too - insects, snakes and poisonous frogs will not care if we are on the ground or not. (my favourite camping structure is the hammock + basha arrangement - quick, no hassle, easy.)

In one topic I was in charge of a few months back, the survival kit per person idea was agreed on. A knife, basic first aid, ball of string, hunting tools, maybe  firestartiting materials, even dried food. A point stressed in "basic training" would of course be "never leave the village without it.

And finally...forgive our members for indulging their wishes. Gliders and helicopters (of which one member does possess one!!) are ideas which more reflect our ideas of wanting to be Na'Vi - flying around our home. They may not be eventual realities, but it does no harm as long as they do not limit our location at all.

Good to see people really reading these topics and finding any holes - we won;t want to find them once we are set up!

[Na'vin Nos'feratxu]

You also make valid points....

I think I could settle for "starting off" with these features....but as time goes by, I will expect that we would move away from these reliabilities.

To answer your question, I was out for 2 weeks, alone...I loved it.

I agree with separating the tribe from the modern tech, unless it became absolutely necessary.
An eco village IS possible.
If everyone were to do their part in sustaining village life, we would be VERY well off.

As for taxes, and other expenditures, hopefully we can settle into a place that wont require money from us on a basis.
Hopefully, in the future we will be able to claim our own land....If its ours, then we have no outsider problems.
This will be difficult however, as a place that will suite us wont be cheep. But it is possible.

If we do require an electrical system, then solar panels and a battery bank will suffice. (And a hand charge system)

If we were to inhabit a location, then animals would not interfere in most cases. Provided the proper precautions are taken.
Actually, it would be nice if animals came to us, it would make hunting easier.
Ever had snake? tastes like chicken......im serious, its really good. 

Im gonna have to think about some things. but you make some very valid points..

[guest2859]

Our plan it to have a kind of wind/solar/hydro-electric system, but we still don't have a fixed budget until we try and go through with it. I think Solar is going to be the for sure one, because a small square can keep a light lit for 1 night.

[Tiaothi]

Our plan it to have a kind of wind/solar/hydro-electric system, but we still don't have a fixed budget until we try and go through with it. I think Solar is going to be the for sure one, because a small square can keep a light lit for 1 night.

You'd still need a few deep cycle batteries with a high enough amp/hour rating to keep it all going and use a solar charging regulator to keep the batteries trickle charging. Solar is way more cost effective, whereas hydro and wind generators are just more troublesome and require more upkeep mechanically.

[Txontaw]

Our plan it to have a kind of wind/solar/hydro-electric system, but we still don't have a fixed budget until we try and go through with it. I think Solar is going to be the for sure one, because a small square can keep a light lit for 1 night.

You'd still need a few deep cycle batteries with a high enough amp/hour rating to keep it all going and use a solar charging regulator to keep the batteries trickle charging. Solar is way more cost effective, whereas hydro and wind generators are just more troublesome and require more upkeep mechanically.

The problem is that solar alone will most likely not be enough, and hydro is constant power, even at night. Plus it depends what you get. Some of the simpler designs last for a long time.

[Key'ìl Nekxetse]

If we built a simple hydro generator, we could do that with wood, the only part from outside would be a dynamo, which could be a fairly primitive device. If that was the case we could probably repair it with scrap.
I think a mixture should be maintained, so that problems with one source won't cause us to run out of power.

[hemmond]

And the backup system for computers can be simple UPS. So even if power suply fails, we can still save data, and maybe keep the lights on.

But I'm afraid, that we'll need bigger dynamo,than you think. but yes... If it fails, we can bulid something from wood as "bugfix". Is here any MacGyver among us?

[Key'ìl Nekxetse]

A UPS is really a box with lead acid batteries in, although some provide an automatic shutdown connection for the systems using it. I think it would be cheaper to use lead acid batteries with our own wiring.
A wooden water-wheel would be easy to repair, so I think that would be good, so long as it provides enough power.
I'm not sure about the dynamo, it will depend on the size of the wheel and power requirements.

[Na'vin Nos'feratxu]

A lead acid battery would not be a good idea. As temperature can affect the voltages and power retain-ability.
A glass mat or Gel battery would be best.
As both glass mat and Gel batteries are not affected by Temp or how they are sitting. they dont corrode either.
you can lay a glass mat or Gel battery on its side, right side up, or upside down.
They better maintain power, voltage, and work best when performing deep cycle jobs.

And they last about 2x longer than your basic Acid battery.
Acid battery give off fumes, you have to maintain their water/acid levels, they MUST sit up right at all times.
And lead plates will sulfate after sitting for so long even when in use, making them less powerful, or even killing the battery.

A solar panel system would be best for todays needs.
If you have around 20 deep cycle cell tower batteries, hooked up to about 10-15 ft squared of solar panel, that would keep them powered, charged, and in operation for a decade or more.
If needed we could also provide a gas powered generator for emergency power/charging of Batteries.

[Tiaothi]

A lead acid battery would not be a good idea. As temperature can affect the voltages and power retain-ability.
A glass mat or Gel battery would be best.
As both glass mat and Gel batteries are not affected by Temp or how they are sitting. they dont corrode either.
you can lay a glass mat or Gel battery on its side, right side up, or upside down.
They better maintain power, voltage, and work best when performing deep cycle jobs.

And they last about 2x longer than your basic Acid battery.
Acid battery give off fumes, you have to maintain their water/acid levels, they MUST sit up right at all times.
And lead plates will sulfate after sitting for so long even when in use, making them less powerful, or even killing the battery.

A solar panel system would be best for todays needs.
If you have around 20 deep cycle cell tower batteries, hooked up to about 10-15 ft squared of solar panel, that would keep them powered, charged, and in operation for a decade or more.
If needed we could also provide a gas powered generator for emergency power/charging of Batteries.

Yeah I've installed a lot of gel-cell battery systems for remote sites in the past and used decent panels and decent smart charging regulators plus a low voltage cutout to knock off non-essential loads when charging becomes an issue. Having seen the destruction of what a lead acid cell can do in certain conditions - well it's not a pretty picture.

[Key'ìl Nekxetse]

Ok, read the wiki article on Gel/AGM, and I hadn't realised how different they were to normal lead-acid. They were the kind of thing I was thinking of.
I'm worried that the lifetime of any battery, even when in optimal use and conditions is going to be less than ten years, meaning replacing a lot of expensive material and causing a lot of damage through disposal of the chemicals. Is there any way we can avoid this?
Could we use some sort of mechanical storage, as an alternative to chemical storage. Maybe something that moves water to a higher area to charge, and drops it to discharge?

[hemmond]

Only if you bulid a water dam... Two. One is upper, one is lower->At day, water is going from upper dam to lower dam and producing energy. At night water is going from lower dam to upper and consuming energy. But when the lower dam is out of water, energy is consumed uselesly. And you'll need damn big dams. And you need to suply that thing, which gets that water from lower dam to upper dam by electricity->At night, we need at least one other source of power. And sustainable... And every night.