Author Topic: Txon'ong  (Read 1196 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Syulang

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 523
  • Karma: 7
Txon'ong
« on: August 18, 2011, 11:54:03 pm »
Ayopin pxor tawka
Tumpin, rim sì tun
Toleya hu atan
Txon'ong alor

Nìk'ong tì'ong
Nemfa txon alor
Sanhì lu txanatan
F'iu tìlor nolgop ta Eywa


Oel ayngati kameie ma oeyä aysmukan sì aysmuke ulte Eywa ayngahu livu

munea kifkey, 'awa soaia

Offline 'Oma Tirea

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3874
  • Karma: 50
  • Na'vi... sleru... rusti...
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 12:51:59 am »
Still can't help but correct some more :P


[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Offline Alyara Arati

  • Eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2757
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 127
  • Arati te Nguran Liyanin'ite
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 01:40:55 am »
So, another poem  :) Irayo to Alyara Arati, Ftxavanga Txe'lan, and Tirea Aean for you help with some phrases  ;) still using the dictionary haha. I feel bad If I don't mention that, I'm not that good at memorising words yet, hrh  ;D oh, had to say 'from' in the last sentence, couldnt find a word for by  ::) hope you guys like it :)

Seysonìltsan ma Syulang!  And you're always welcome.  Don't worry about still using the dictionary; so do I from time to time. :) ;D :)

Just a few little things:  tumpin is a noun, whereas tun is the adjective form.  Rim is also an adjective.  So if you want to be naming the colors of the sunset, you probably want to say "tumpin sì rimpin".  You would use the adjectives for something like "txep lu tun sì rim".

Likewise teya in the third line is an adjective, so it can't take infixes like the verb form, teya si.  "Teya fa atan" would translate as full with light.  Alternatively, you could also use "atan teya soli tawur", or teya soli hu atan.

However tì'ong is a noun, and therefore can't be modified by an adverb.  So you should change that to something like "Nìk'ong 'erong" or "Kì'onga tì'ong".  I just noticed that 'Oma Tirea ninja'd me, but this has a little more explanation, so I'll go ahead and post it.

Finally, "Fì'u tìlor" needs to be "Fìtìlor" in order to be correct and say what you want it to mean.  Also, the infixes in verbs always go just before the vowel, so the proper placement would be ng<ol>op.  You could also consider "Tìlor a Eywal ngolop".
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 01:52:33 am by Alyara Arati »
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Sireayä mokri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • Karma: 35
  • Veritas vos liberabit
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 08:23:54 am »
Seysonìltsan nìmun, ma Syulang :)

teya soli hu atan.

I think this way it'll be semantically transitive (filled [something] with light), so <äp> is required.

"Fì'u tìlor" needs to be "Fìtìlor" in order to be correct and say what you want it to mean.

It also needs -it to mark direct object of ngop. But I certainly vote for

"Tìlor a Eywal ngolop".
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2011, 08:38:38 am »

I think this way it'll be semantically transitive (filled [something] with light), so <äp> is required.

since when did we have this piece of grammar? where did this whole notion of "semantically transitive" come from? curious.

Quote

It also needs -it to mark direct object of ngop. But I certainly vote for

"Tìlor a Eywal ngolop".

agreed.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Sireayä mokri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • Karma: 35
  • Veritas vos liberabit
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 08:57:09 am »
since when did we have this piece of grammar? where did this whole notion of "semantically transitive" come from? curious.

I knew you gonna ask me that :P Afaik, it's not confirmed, but is evident from such phrases as:

14.  Could you make that a bit clearer? Could you explain that further?
Tsun nga law sivi nì’it srak?

Here tsar seems to be omitted.

But let's say teya si can be considered to be to fill [oneself]. What would teya säpi mean then? We know that win säpi is to hurry oneself (reflective), so I don't see why teya si would be different. So we get:

oe teya si tawur — I fill the sky.
oe teya säpi — I fill myself.
oe atanur teya seyki tawit   — I make light fill the sky.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline Seze Mune

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2052
  • Karma: 39
  • Fwa kan ke lu nìtam. Nga zene swizawit livonu.
    • Our fun & awesome RP: Aysautral
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2011, 09:06:14 am »
So, another poem  :) Irayo to Alyara Arati, Ftxavanga Txe'lan, and Tirea Aean for you help with some phrases  ;) still using the dictionary haha. I feel bad If I don't mention that, I'm not that good at memorising words yet, hrh  ;D oh, had to say 'from' in the last sentence, couldnt find a word for by  ::) hope you guys like it :)

Seysonìltsan ma Syulang!  And you're always welcome.  Don't worry about still using the dictionary; so do I from time to time. :) ;D :)

Just a few little things:  tumpin is a noun, whereas tun is the adjective form.  Rim is also an adjective.  So if you want to be naming the colors of the sunset, you probably want to say "tumpin sì rimpin".  You would use the adjectives for something like "txep lu tun sì rim".

Likewise teya in the third line is an adjective, so it can't take infixes like the verb form, teya si.  "Teya fa atan" would translate as full with light.  Alternatively, you could also use "atan teya soli tawur", or teya soli hu atan.

However tì'ong is a noun, and therefore can't be modified by an adverb.  So you should change that to something like "Nìk'ong 'erong" or "Kì'onga tì'ong".  I just noticed that 'Oma Tirea ninja'd me, but this has a little more explanation, so I'll go ahead and post it.

Finally, "Fì'u tìlor" needs to be "Fìtìlor" in order to be correct and say what you want it to mean.  Also, the infixes in verbs always go just before the vowel, so the proper placement would be ng<ol>op.  You could also consider "Tìlor a Eywal ngolop".

Wow, this is helpful for me in understanding the way it works.  Thanks to both of you for the illustration!

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2011, 09:15:31 am »
oe atanur teya seyki tawit   — I make light fill the sky.

fascinating. A good theory. it seems possible. though (concerning äp and "semantic transitivity",)claiming that  something is required is a tad sketch for me without seeing it confirmed. but it seems that your guess here is as good as mine without confirmation ;)

also, in that case, wouldnt it be oel?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2011, 09:17:41 am by Tirea Aean »

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Sireayä mokri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • Karma: 35
  • Veritas vos liberabit
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2011, 09:41:41 am »
claiming that  something is required is a tad sketch for me without seeing it confirmed.

Required according to my theory :) I just really can't imagine how a verb can be considered reflective without <äp>. Transitivity is not related to reflectivity in this sense, otherwise we wouldn't need win säpi since win si would mean just that.

also, in that case, wouldnt it be oel?

Agree, didn't catch that.

Another thing to think about: we have Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si canonized. How would you interpret that if we omit oeru? It doesn't seem to me that fwa sute pxel nga ... teya si could mean this thing ... fills itself (with joy).
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline Alyara Arati

  • Eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2757
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 127
  • Arati te Nguran Liyanin'ite
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 01:33:23 pm »
Seysonìltsan nìmun, ma Syulang :)

teya soli hu atan.

I think this way it'll be semantically transitive (filled [something] with light), so <äp> is required.

"Fì'u tìlor" needs to be "Fìtìlor" in order to be correct and say what you want it to mean.

It also needs -it to mark direct object of ngop. But I certainly vote for

"Tìlor a Eywal ngolop".

Oh my, I missed putting -it on fìtìlor!  Oops!  Happily other people caught that, so my mistake shouldn't be too confusing.

Also, within the context of the poem, I had thought that perhaps (taw a) teya soli hu atan had been "understood" in 'Oma Tirea's example, especially since Syulang translated it as "a sky filled with light".
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Sireayä mokri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • Karma: 35
  • Veritas vos liberabit
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 01:38:26 pm »
Also, within the context of the poem, I had thought that perhaps (taw a) teya soli hu atan had been "understood" in 'Oma Tirea's example, especially since Syulang translated it as "a sky filled with light".

Then maybe we could avoid using teya si altogether, and say, for example, atanìri lu teya?
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline Kamean

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 10804
  • Karma: 64
  • Oe lu tute a tsun stivawm Eywayä mokrit
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 01:49:19 pm »
Seysonìltsan ma Syulang! :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Blue Elf

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5502
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 112
    • My attempt for blog
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2011, 02:48:31 pm »
Well, although this poem looks simply, it is very nice. Good job, ma Syulang  :)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tanri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1024
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 25
  • Mìkam aysanhì tìranyu.
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2011, 03:01:31 pm »
Mllte oe, seysonìltsan sì lor nìngay! :)
Sunu oeru aylì’u ngeyä, ma Syulang, ulte prrte’ lu oer fwa ngal tse’a tìlorit mì hrr a trr leratem ne txon.

I just really can't imagine how a verb can be considered reflective without <äp>.
Just a note - isn't this a case of latem?
According dictionary, the meaning is just "change" but I believe that the full explanation is "to change (oneself)" - to distinguish from l<eyk>atem - "to change (something)".
Latem looks "semantically reflective" :D - although not explicitly marked as reflective, it is used that way.
Anything published exlusively on Discord (and not in this forum) does not exist...

Offline Syulang

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 523
  • Karma: 7
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2011, 02:28:57 am »
thanks a lot for the compliments and corrections ma 'eylan  :)
Oel ayngati kameie ma oeyä aysmukan sì aysmuke ulte Eywa ayngahu livu

munea kifkey, 'awa soaia

Offline Sireayä mokri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • Karma: 35
  • Veritas vos liberabit
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2011, 09:06:23 am »
Just a note - isn't this a case of latem?
According dictionary, the meaning is just "change" but I believe that the full explanation is "to change (oneself)" - to distinguish from l<eyk>atem - "to change (something)".
Latem looks "semantically reflective" :D - although not explicitly marked as reflective, it is used that way.

I wouldn't agree. To change (intr.) is a process one undergoes to get a new shape/looks/meaning etc. as a result. To change oneself is to cause oneself to change (läpeykatem). If I change, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm intentionally applying changes to myself, it's just a process happening to me, which can also possibly displease me, however I can't/don't want to stop it and therefore go through it anyway.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

Offline Tanri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1024
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 25
  • Mìkam aysanhì tìranyu.
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2011, 01:26:44 pm »
Irayo seiyi ngaru, ma Sireayä mokri!

So if I got it correctly, latem has three possible translations:
- latem            vin               "to be subject of change" (without any other implications)
- leykatem       vtr                "to change something"
- läpeykatem    vtr (reflexive)  "to change oneself"
I was influenced by Czech variant of "to change", because it covers only the two latter meanings ("to change something" or "to change oneself"). For "to be subject of change" we have to use another verb.

Fì’uri ngaytxoa, ma eylan, slä new oe tslivam fìtxelet nìno. / I apologise for this off-topic, but I want to understand precisely. ;)
Anything published exlusively on Discord (and not in this forum) does not exist...

Offline Sireayä mokri

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6012
  • Karma: 35
  • Veritas vos liberabit
Re: Txon'ong
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2011, 01:48:24 pm »
I was influenced by Czech variant of "to change", because it covers only the two latter meanings ("to change something" or "to change oneself"). For "to be subject of change" we have to use another verb.

Yes, it works similarly in Russian too. Менять — vtr., меняться — vin.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi