Txepit oel tse'a

[Tìtstewan]

Well, there should be more translated stuff here, so I've translated this song that was played in one of the Hobbit movie (in this case, The Desolation of Smaug).
As always, corrections are welcome.


Ed Sheeran

I See Fire
Txepit oel tse'a

O, nari leyapay ramä a tsatsengäo, vewng vitrat smukanä nìwotx. Ulte zivene taw teya ta txep sì kxener, nari si, 'itan Turinä. Txo fì'u 'ivi'a txepmì, tsakrr zivene ayoe nivekx 'awsiteng. Tìng nari txepur a fäkä txonmì Syeraw, ma sempul fmal ulte ayoel nayìn txepit a nekx nìtun mì fa'o ramä. Ulte txo ayoe zene tiverkup fìtxon, tsakrr zivene ayoe tiverkup 'awsiteng. kxeltek tsngalit swoayä hamalo. Syeraw, ma sempul häpawl tengkrr ayoel nayìn txepit a nekx nìtun mì fa'o ramä. tìska'a za'u tawka. Set, tse'a oel txepit a mìfa ram oel tse'a txepit a nekx ayutralit. Ulte tse'a oel txepit a sleyku momek ayvitrat, tse'a oel txepit, hufwemì reypayt Ulte sìlpey oe (tsnì) ngal ziyeverok oet. O, lolätxayn oeyä olo'ti tsakrr am'aluke oe tsakem sayi nìtengfya. syep slärmì ramä txepìri ayoe samim nìhawng. Syeraw, ma sempul livu seykxel tengkrr ayoel nayìn txepit a nekx nìtun mì fa'o ramä. tìska'a za'u tawka. Set, tse'a oel txepit a rammìfa tse'a oel txepit a nekx ayutralit. tse'a oel oel txepit a sleyku momek ayvitrat, tse'a oel txepit, hufwemì reypayt Ulte sìlpey oe (tsnì) ngal ziyeverok oet. Ulte txo txon nerekx, lew sayi oe oeyä menarir, taluna tìvawm tivätxaw tsakrr oeyä smukan tayerkup. ulte krra taw zerup ne kllte, tolakuk tsaw fìtsraynemfa le'aw. Ulte tsauktalun sìn kllte, oel stawm sutet oeyä a zerawng. Set, tse'a oel txepit a rammìfa tse'a oel txepit a nekx ayutralit. tse'a oel txepit a sleyku momek ayvitrat, tse'a oel txepit, reypayt hufwemì Tse'a oel txepit, o, omum ngal futa oel tsole'a nusekxa tsrayti (txep) Tse'a oel txepit, 'efu oel tìsomit (a) ta'lengmì (txep) Ulte tse'a oel txepit (txep) Ulte tse'a oel txepit a nekx nìtun mì fa'o ramä.

Oh, misty eye of the mountain below Keep careful watch of my brothers' souls And should the sky be filled with fire and smoke Keep watching over Durin's son If this is to end in fire Then we should all burn together Watch the flames climb high into the night Calling out father, stand by and we will Watch the flames burn auburn on the mountain side And if we should die tonight Then we should all die together Raise a glass of wine for the last time Calling out father, prepare as we will Watch the flames burn auburn on the mountain side Desolation comes upon the sky Now I see fire, inside the mountain I see fire, burning the trees And I see fire, hollowing souls I see fire, blood in the breeze And I hope that you'll remember me Oh, should my people fall Then surely I'll do the same Confined in mountain halls We got too close to the flame Calling out father hold fast and we will Watch the flames burn auburn on the mountain side Desolation comes upon the sky Now I see fire, inside the mountain I see fire, burning the trees I see fire, hollowing souls I see fire, blood in the breeze And I hope that you'll remember me And if the night is burning I will cover my eyes For if the dark returns then My brothers will die And as the sky's falling down It crashed into this lonely town And with that shadow upon the ground I hear my people screaming out Now I see fire, inside the mountain I see fire, burning the trees I see fire, hollowing souls I see fire, blood in the breeze I see fire, oh you know I saw a city burning (fire) I see fire, feel the heat upon my skin (fire) And I see fire (fire) And I see fire burn auburn on the mountain side

Sìlpey oe, ayngar sunu tsaw.

[Eichhörnchen]

Kaltxì ma Roland


Very nice. It's remember me on a translation from a Hobbit poem, thats I make a long time ago.
Now my own na'vi and english is a little bit rusty, so I dont to improve your great work.
( Must try to write more in this sections ).

Btw. Gollum has a little gift for you ... 



Ngaru tsulfä! Eywa nga hu,


ta Robert

[Tìtstewan]

Irayo ma Robert!

Yeah, I am pretty sure there are some little mistakes I have overlooked.
I am dissapointed that I wasn't successful to make this song singable...meh.

----

Btw. Gollum has a little gift for you ...

HRH! oeyä tsyeym

[Blue Elf]

Quite nice job, ma Tìtstewan! I'm pretty sure it was not easy, but result is really good.
As for some changes, which  could be made:
- I somewhow don't like first line, with tok used it looks like something is still missing. I would try for example:
Ma naril leyapay ramä a ayoengäo..
- in second line, original says about brothers, but translation about sons. I don't know if it was intended - probably not, as last line also speaks about son.
- at some places you use <asy>, what doesn't seems to be always correct, for example in oeyä smukan tasyerkup. <asy> expresses intention of the speaker, what can be interpreted in way that if they do not die themselves (or someone else do not kill them), you step in the scene and do it - as their death is your intention (this feature of Na'vi is quite interesting for interpretation).
The same with ayoel nasyìn futa txep nekx nìtun mì fa'o ramä.
- why <iv> here in oel stivawm sutet oeyä a zerawng? As original says "I hear my people screaming out", I'd omit it.

But still - big applause for you!

[Tìtstewan]

Irayo!

- I somewhow don't like first line, with tok used it looks like something is still missing. I would try for example: Ma naril leyapay ramä a ayoengäo..

I thought about this line, and I think it should be:
naril leyapay ramä a tsatsengäo
because, the meaning is "Misty eye of the mountain that is there below"
The english text is shortened.

- in second line, original says about brothers, but translation about sons. I don't know if it was intended - probably not, as last line also speaks about son.

Oopsi...fixed. I confused it with the last line.

- at some places you use <asy>, what doesn't seems to be always correct, for example in oeyä smukan tasyerkup. <asy> expresses intention of the speaker, what can be interpreted in way that if they do not die themselves (or someone else do not kill them), you step in the scene and do it - as their death is your intention (this feature of Na'vi is quite interesting for interpretation). The same with ayoel nasyìn futa txep nekx nìtun mì fa'o ramä.

I understand <asy> as an intention to do something in the future that is not limited to a speaker (not like <äng>, <ei>). For me, that infix says that an action will happen in the future /for sure, with intention/. So, if I say,

Oel asyinan fìkorenit.
I will read this rule for sure/definely.
^this is what you understand about <asy>

Ngal asyinan horenit.
You will definely read the rules.
^here, you will definely do that action, not me who say that.

The characters in the songs intend to do these actions, not me who has written this.

Spoiler: Tirea Aean pamrel soli fì'ur

Also from the meetup:

more on <ay>/<ìy> vs. <asy>/<ìsy>:

<ay> infix is form a future prediction, <asy> is to express an intention to do something in the future.

From the 2014 Handout:

Use the -ay- infix for the future (prediction):
    tìng    tayìng
Use the -asy- infix for the future (intention):
    tìng    tasyìng

the idea is, ay/ìy is a prediction, and asy/ìsy is intention. We have been calling asy/ìsy determination ( / determination of speaker) and have hardly ever been using it. This data should increase the frequency of the asy/ìsy infix.

Therefore, technically, every time you say a sentence in future tense where you have no intentions/control and it is a prediction, it is ay/ìy. Otherwise, if there is intention, it's asy/ìsy.

Yes, technically this is all known, but the idea that ay is just a prediction is a new perspective. at least it is for me. And this would/should lead to a slight definition change and increase usage of asy in general. This is all probably just a nit-pick session, but still.

And there are other things on the way once I've heard back from him in an email.

- why <iv> here in oel stivawm sutet oeyä a zerawng? As original says "I hear my people screaming out", I'd omit it.

<iv> was accidentally added...removed.

[Vawmataw]

Good job!

[Blue Elf]

What you didn't take into account is:

the idea is, ay/ìy is a prediction, and asy/ìsy is intention. We have been calling asy/ìsy determination ( / determination of speaker) and have hardly ever been using it. This data should increase the frequency of the asy/ìsy infix.

Same in Horen:

6.7.9. Intentional Future. The intentional future forms in ‹ìsy› and ‹asy› indicate the determination
by the speaker to bring about a state of affairs, rather than a prediction about the future.
Ayoe ke wasyem we will not fight, tafral ke lìsyek oel ngeyä keye'ungit therefore I will not heed your insanity.

So whatever you say with asy/ìsy is YOUR intention, not intention of person you speak about. Be careful!

Ngal asyinan horenit. -> You will read rules for sure (and when won't do it voluntarily, I'll make you)

[Tìtstewan]

Same in Horen: 6.7.9. Intentional Future. The intentional future forms in ‹ìsy› and ‹asy› indicate the determination by the speaker to bring about a state of affairs, rather than a prediction about the future. Ayoe ke wasyem we will not fight, tafral ke lìsyek oel ngeyä keye'ungit therefore I will not heed your insanity. So whatever you say with asy/ìsy is YOUR intention, not intention of person you speak about. Be careful!

Kehe, this is the old definition. The last update of Horen leNa'vi was June 2, 2013.

'Upxare ta Tirea Aean ta AvatarMeet 2014:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/website-info/the-dictionary-part-ii/msg611181/#msg611181

and:

asy: [a.sj] PF future tense with intention or determination verbal infix in position 1 (FUT.D.): Oel tsp«asy»ang palulukanit. I will definitely kill the thanator.

[Blue Elf]

Same in Horen: 6.7.9. Intentional Future. The intentional future forms in ‹ìsy› and ‹asy› indicate the determination by the speaker to bring about a state of affairs, rather than a prediction about the future. Ayoe ke wasyem we will not fight, tafral ke lìsyek oel ngeyä keye'ungit therefore I will not heed your insanity. So whatever you say with asy/ìsy is YOUR intention, not intention of person you speak about. Be careful!

Kehe, this is the old definition. The last update of Horen leNa'vi was June 2, 2013.

'Upxare ta Tirea Aean ta AvatarMeet 2014:
http://forum.learnnavi.org/website-info/the-dictionary-part-ii/msg611181/#msg611181

I don't think this "new" definition says something new, just note about speaker is missing. I'll try to get some recording of that lesson, but I don't think it brings completely new definition. At least it would need confirmation (fresh meat for next LEP, I think )

and:

asy: [a.sj] PF future tense with intention or determination verbal infix in position 1 (FUT.D.): Oel tsp«asy»ang palulukanit. I will definitely kill the thanator.

In This example is works, as speaker speaks about yourself - so it is about his own intention

[Tìtstewan]

I don't think this "new" definition says something new, just note about speaker is missing. I'll try to get some recording of that lesson, but I don't think it brings completely new definition. At least it would need confirmation (fresh meat for next LEP, I think )

The videos are in work...(if you mean the Na'vi lesson 103 with Pawl)
And, it's written in the handout that Pawl used in the last Avatar Meet (Srungtsyìp a5ve—Tip #5:). (Attachment)

[Blue Elf]

I don't think this "new" definition says something new, just note about speaker is missing. I'll try to get some recording of that lesson, but I don't think it brings completely new definition. At least it would need confirmation (fresh meat for next LEP, I think )

The videos are in work...(if you mean the Na'vi lesson 103 with Pawl)
And, it's written in the handout that Pawl used in the last Avatar Meet (Srungtsyìp a5ve—Tip #5:). (Attachment)

Well, I just found that information to, we must wait to get more info or ask directly. Handout probably do not contains all informations, as it is simple document for the class. I can hardly believe that definition would change in so significant way.

[Wllìm]

Great translation! +1 of course
It seems there are lots of song translations lately

As for the tasyerkup discussion: if I read Tirea Aean's original message, it seems to me that the <asy>/<ay>-distinction is based on the intention of the speaker, not the subject of the sentence:

[...]

Therefore, technically, every time you say a sentence in future tense where you have no intentions/control and it is a prediction, it is ay/ìy. Otherwise, if there is intention, it's asy/ìsy.

[...]

(emphasis mine )

At least in this message the distinction seems to be that "you", i.e., the speaker, have to have an intention to do it. It would be nice if this could be clarified, though

[Tìtstewan]

Irayo, ma Wllìm!

Hmm, then, the definition in the dictionary miss a detail. And in the handout, is nothing with "you" or "speaker".
maybe, we will see more in the 103 videos, that I hope, will come soon.

Srungtsyìp a5ve—Tip #5: Completed Action; the Future Use the -ol- infix for completed action:            tìng -> tolìng Use the -ay- infix for the future (prediction):            tìng -> tayìng Use the -asy- infix for the future (intention):            tìng -> tasyìng

[Plumps]

naril leyapay ramä a tsatsengäo,
vewng vitrat aysmukanä nìwotx.
Ulte zivene taw teya sivi fa txep sì kxener,
nari sivi Turinä 'itanur.

Why naril? The agentive is misplaced here, either you address ... whatever the misty eye is or you make a statement about it.
"filled with" is teya ta
I wouldn't use the dative with nari si – I've only seen it with the topic
... yeah, what would I give for a word for "watch sth./keep watch"

Not sure over all whether these "should"s should be translated with zene...

...
Tìng tsngalit swoayä hamalo.
Syeraw, ma sempul fmal ulte tengkrr
ayoel nasyìn futa txep nekx nìtun mì fa'o ramä.

How about kxeltek for "raise"? tìng doesn't fit here.
"for the last time" is syena alo or tora alo in this sense, hamalo means "(like) the previous time"
Why tengkrr?
I'd say ... nayìn txepit a nekx nìtun...

Set, tse'a oel txepit a mìfa ram
...

mìfa is either an adverb or a noun, you used it as an adposition here.

O, zene tivatep oeyä sutet
tsakrr nìam'ake oe tsakem sasyi nìtengfya.
tìng tseng slärmì ramä
Ayoe slamu txeplok nìhawng.
...

tatep
In this context olo' is maybe closer to the meaning of "folk, kinsmen, a people"
Either am'aluke or nìlun, kezemplltxe
I don't think, tìng tseng is right here – syep comes closer to "confine, trapped"
Be careful of English idioms with "got" – I'd simply say txepìri ayoe samim nìhawng or something like that.
For the rest see above.

...
ulte krra taw zerup ne kllte,
tolakuk tsaw fìtsraynemfa le'aw.
Ulte tsaukhu mì hllte,
oel stawm sutet oeyä a zerawng.

I agree with Blue Elf, there is an overuse of ‹asy› and I don't believe that determination can be expressed outside of what the speaker said (I'm thinking of the line "if the dark returns | my brothers will die" – ‹asy› is totally unnecessary here because it would mean that the speaker will bring about the dying of his brothers)
le'aw is "only, single" but not "lonely" (that's a word we still miss)
I'd say tsal tolakuk fìtsrayti ...
I'd interpret "with that shadow" as "because of", i.e. tsauktalun ... I'd use sìn instead of mì, though.

...
Tse'a oel txepit, 'efu oel tìsomit (a) mì sa'leng (txep)
...

'efu is transitive.
The a is up for debate. Depends on whether mì sa'leng refers to 'efu or tìsom. Needless to say, in song/poetry it can be left out.

[Tìtstewan]

It seems that I never be able to make flawless translations...

naril leyapay ramä a tsatsengäo, vewng vitrat aysmukanä nìwotx. Ulte zivene taw teya sivi fa txep sì kxener, nari sivi Turinä 'itanur. Why naril? The agentive is misplaced here, either you address ... whatever the misty eye is or you make a statement about it. "filled with" is teya ta I wouldn't use the dative with nari si – I've only seen it with the topic ... yeah, what would I give for a word for "watch sth./keep watch" Not sure over all whether these "should"s should be translated with zene...

But, the sentence is:
O, naril leyapay ramä {a tsatsengäo}, vewng vitrat aysmukanä nìwotx.
-> Who keep watch my brother's soul? - The misty eye of the mountain

As for nari si and dative:

Ayhemìri 'ewana tsanantangur ahì'i tìng nari. Lu hona, kefyak? 'Look at what that little young viperwolf is doing. Isn't that adorable?'

As for the two +control forms in the second and third columns, the simple verbs in column 2 are used mostly with an explicit object, while the tìng forms are used mostly without an object. So the most common way to say 'Look at that!' is Nìn tsat! But if you just want to say 'Look!' it's usually Tìng nari! But other possibilities exist. So, for example, to say 'Look at him!' the most common way is simply Poti nìn! But Poru tìng nari! is also possible.

As for the other points, I will comment them, when I am back from work...

[Plumps]

It seems that I never be able to make flawless translations...

Sngum rä'ä si, awnga tìkxey si nìwotx krro krro.
It's difficult enough to translate from your native language into others, taking another language as a medium is always risky and has led to outragous and often comical misinterpretations in translation history

But, the sentence is:
O, naril leyapay ramä {a tsatsengäo}, vewng vitrat aysmukanä nìwotx.
-> Who keep watch my brother's soul? - The misty eye of the mountain

No, it's not. That would be the case if it said, "O, misty eye of the mountain below | Keeps careful watch of my brothers' souls". But it doesn't. The missing s for the 3rd person singular indicates that the second line is really a command. The persona speaks to the misty eye and asks of it to take care of his brothers.

As for nari si and dative:

Ayhemìri 'ewana tsanantangur ahì'i tìng nari. Lu hona, kefyak? 'Look at what that little young viperwolf is doing. Isn't that adorable?'

As for the two +control forms in the second and third columns, the simple verbs in column 2 are used mostly with an explicit object, while the tìng forms are used mostly without an object. So the most common way to say 'Look at that!' is Nìn tsat! But if you just want to say 'Look!' it's usually Tìng nari! But other possibilities exist. So, for example, to say 'Look at him!' the most common way is simply Poti nìn! But Poru tìng nari! is also possible.

Nari si and tìng nari have two different meanings.
Nari si is "look out!/watch out!/be careful (about)" (Ger.: pass auf! sei(d) vorsichtig!); tìng nari is "look at/observe" (Ger.: etwas ansehen/hinschauen). Apart from that obvious difference their grammatical behaviour is different as well ... come to think of it, then this wouldn't fit here, because the persona asks the misty eye to "take care of Durin's sons" ... to me that sounds more like a case for vewng again. Otherwise this would mean "Beware/Be careful of Durin's sons (because they are dangerous and will hurt you etc.)"

[Blue Elf]

But, the sentence is:
O, naril leyapay ramä {a tsatsengäo}, vewng vitrat aysmukanä nìwotx.
-> Who keep watch my brother's soul? - The misty eye of the mountain

No, it's not. That would be the case if it said, "O, misty eye of the mountain below | Keeps careful watch of my brothers' souls". But it doesn't. The missing s for the 3rd person singular indicates that the second line is really a command. The persona speaks to the misty eye and asks of it to take care of his brothers.

So it seems that I understood this part wrong way too
Well, needed to say that translating poetry/songs is very tricky action, where you misunderstand something and translate it wrong way; then another person understand it different way, so everyone is either unhappy as result is not good, or everyone is happy how good it is - although everyone understand it different way
Head up, Tìtstewan - you tried and that's important; not everyone is brave enough to try. We still miss many words and grammar, so not everything can be made. But one day...... we'll show you how to do it!

[Plumps]

Well, needed to say that translating poetry/songs is very tricky action, where you misunderstand something and translate it wrong way; then another person understand it different way, so everyone is either unhappy as result is not good, or everyone is happy how good it is - although everyone understand it different way
Head up, Tìtstewan - you tried and that's important; not everyone is brave enough to try. We still miss many words and grammar, so not everything can be made. But one day...... we'll show you how to do it!

I agree whole-heartedly. Poetry and song is so difficult to translate because it is already such a refined and condensed language with metaphors and stylistic images and idioms and tweaked grammar and so on and so forth
So, it's always something for debate because another reader will understand it completely different. I took a seminar once on this topic of the history of translating/interpreting and it was tremendously intriguing

But that will never keep me (and I hope you as well ) from trying. It's part of the fun to try and translate this stuff – no matter whether it's singable or not. It helps us to discover areas of the language we need to develop further, shows us gaps in the lexicon and is just a good way to practise!

[Tìtstewan]

I have edited that text and fixed some stuff.

tatep

What's wrong with it?

[Plumps]

tatep

What's wrong with it?

I'm just pondering over the ramifications. You mean tatep in the sense of "loose track of/loose awareness of" – that's an interesting choice for the meaning of "fall" in the song. *hmmmmm*

I understand tatep more as "I lost the book you gave me", i.e. I no longer have it.
How about snaytx – oeyä olo'(ìl) snolaytx (whather ... the war, the battle, the fight, their honour ...)?
Or in the same vain lätxayn – O, lolätxayn oeyä olo'ti – "they were conquered/defeated"?