about Cases Suffix (and maybe some more questions)

Started by Dalva, March 11, 2011, 03:20:46 AM

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Dalva

I dont understand when should i use suffixes like -ru or -ti or -ya and such
also, provide a lot of example please?
and maybe i'll add more questions later :)

edit: oh i have just noticed there's a "Prefixes, Infixes and Suffixes" subforum. sorry for posting here  :P

MIPP

Quote from: Dalva on March 11, 2011, 03:20:46 AM
I dont understand when should i use suffixes like -ru or -ti or -ya and such
also, provide a lot of example please?
and maybe i'll add more questions later :)

edit: oh i have just noticed there's a "Prefixes, Infixes and Suffixes" subforum. sorry for posting here  :P

I would love to provide you some examples in your mother tongue, but I don't think I understand Indonesian... So I will do it in English.

Agentive - ìl/l

The agentive is the subject of a transitive sentence. It means that one used the agentive suffix only when the sentence is transitive (transitive verb) and we put it in the subject.
The difference between "ìl" and "l" is: if the word's last word is a vowel or a diphthong, you put "l". If it is a consonant or a pseudo-vowel, you put "ìl".

E.g.

Oe-l nga-ti kame - The subject is Oe, because if you ask the verb "Who sees?", the answer is Oe. As the subject finishes with a vowel, you put the consonant ending "l".

Oeng-al po-ti kame - The subject is Oengal, because if you ask the verb "Who sees?", the answer is Oeng. As the subject finishes with a consonant, you should put the consonant ending "ìl", but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "al", because "Oeng" comes from "Oe"+"Nga".

Ikran-ìl nga-ti yom - The subject is Ikran, because if you ask the verb "Who eats?", the answer is Ikran. As the subject finishes with a consonant, you put the consonant ending "ìl".


Patientive - t(i)/it

The patientive is the object of a transitive sentence. It means that one used the patientive suffix only when the sentence is transitive (transitive verb) and we put it in the object.
The difference between "t(i)" and "it" is: if the word's last word is a vowel, you put "t" or "ti" - your choice. If it is a consonant or a pseudo-vowel, you put "ìt". But, when it is a diphthong, you can put any, except "t". So, when it is a diphthong, you may write "ti" or "it".

Oe-l nga-ti kame - The object is Nga, because if you ask the verb "Who is seen", the answer is Nga. As the object finishes with a vowel, you put the consonant ending "ti" (or "t").

Oe-l ayoeng-at tse'a - The object is Ayoeng, because if you ask the verb "Who is seen", the answer is Ayoeng. As the object finishes with a consonant, you should put the vowel ending "ti" (or "t"), , but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "at", because "Ayoeng" comes from "Ayoe"+"Nga".

Oe-l ikran-it yom - The object is Ikran, because if you ask the verb "Who is eaten?", the answer is Ikran. As the object finishes with a consonant, you put the consonant ending "it".


I will leave the dative's explanation to another person, as I am in a hurry.  :-X
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Ikran Ahiyìk

Quote from: MIPP on March 11, 2011, 03:53:11 AM
Oeng-al po-ti kame - The subject is Oengal, because if you ask the verb "Who sees?", the answer is Oeng. As the subject finishes with a consonant, you should put the consonant ending "ìl", but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "al", because "Oeng" comes from "Oe"+"Nga".

Oe-l ayoeng-at tse'a - The object is Ayoeng, because if you ask the verb "Who is seen", the answer is Ayoeng. As the object finishes with a consonant, you should put the vowel ending "ti" (or "t"), , but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "at", because "Ayoeng" comes from "Ayoe"+"Nga".

I'm afraid you can't say like this...

Oenga is the full form and oeng is the short..
The a is still a part of nga, not the case markers.
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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MIPP

Quote from: Ikran Ahiyìk on March 11, 2011, 04:29:13 AM
Quote from: MIPP on March 11, 2011, 03:53:11 AM
Oeng-al po-ti kame - The subject is Oengal, because if you ask the verb "Who sees?", the answer is Oeng. As the subject finishes with a consonant, you should put the consonant ending "ìl", but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "al", because "Oeng" comes from "Oe"+"Nga".

Oe-l ayoeng-at tse'a - The object is Ayoeng, because if you ask the verb "Who is seen", the answer is Ayoeng. As the object finishes with a consonant, you should put the vowel ending "ti" (or "t"), , but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "at", because "Ayoeng" comes from "Ayoe"+"Nga".

I'm afraid you can't say like this...

Oenga is the full form and oeng is the short..
The a is still a part of nga, not the case markers.


I wrote that way so that he could understand. I mean, it is easier to understand it that way, instead of having to know that the "a" is part of the word... Don't you think?
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Ikran Ahiyìk

Quote from: MIPP on March 11, 2011, 04:42:11 AM
Quote from: Ikran Ahiyìk on March 11, 2011, 04:29:13 AM
Quote from: MIPP on March 11, 2011, 03:53:11 AM
Oeng-al po-ti kame - The subject is Oengal, because if you ask the verb "Who sees?", the answer is Oeng. As the subject finishes with a consonant, you should put the consonant ending "ìl", but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "al", because "Oeng" comes from "Oe"+"Nga".

Oe-l ayoeng-at tse'a - The object is Ayoeng, because if you ask the verb "Who is seen", the answer is Ayoeng. As the object finishes with a consonant, you should put the vowel ending "ti" (or "t"), , but this is an exception: with the inclusive pronoun forms, you put "at", because "Ayoeng" comes from "Ayoe"+"Nga".

I'm afraid you can't say like this...

Oenga is the full form and oeng is the short..
The a is still a part of nga, not the case markers.


I wrote that way so that he could understand. I mean, it is easier to understand it that way, instead of having to know that the "a" is part of the word... Don't you think?

Yes this is good :)
but I think the position of the hyphen might carry confusion that -at -al are kind of markers... In fact they aren't, are they...?

This would clear it, although the descriptions maybe a bit long..

Oeng-a-l / O e n g a -l

Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

#5
good question ma Dalva.
I'll explain about the four cases agentive, patientive, dative, genitive

the agentive case marker is l or ìl. it means that the one marked with this, is the one doing the action. the kid throws the ball - the kid is the agent (he is the subject).

the patientive case marker is t or ti and it. this one means that the one marked with this case, is the one that is "done" (it's the opposite of the agentive). the kid throws the ball - the ball is being thrown (it is the direct object).

the dative case marker is ru or r and ur. this marks an indirect object which is the one to whom the action was done.
the kid throws the ball to the girl - the girl is the indirect object.

the genitive case marker is yä or y and ä. this is what we call possesive. 'evengä rum-the kid's ball.

I hope this helps. there is another case which is called the topical but it is more advanced and harder to understand so I haven't included it here.
Eywa ngahu
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Ikran Ahiyìk

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on March 11, 2011, 07:07:06 AM
the patientive case marker is t or ti and it. this one means that the one marked with this case, is the one that is "done" (it's the opposite of the agentive). the kid throws the ball - the ball is being thrown (it is the direct object).

the dative case marker is ru or r and ur. this marks an indirect object which is the one to whom the action was done.
the kid throws the ball to the girl - the girl is the indirect object.

Something missed.. ::)

For patientive, it's [V] -t(i) or [C/D] -it / -ti ..

For dative, it's [V] -r(u) or [C] -ur or [D] -r(u) / -ur ..

Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

#7
that is less important. the important thing is that Dalva knows the basics because in this case the irregulars are just allowable, not a must.
and by the way I like to see the diphthongs like a vowel and a consonant and that way I avoid confusion.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Ikran Ahiyìk

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on March 11, 2011, 09:00:58 AM
that is less important. the important thing is that Dalva knows the basics because in this case the irregulars are just allowable, not a must.
and by the way I like to see the diphthongs like a vowel and a consonant and that way I avoid confusion.

Yes, but you have said the main points of them already, so I'm not going to repeat here.


Quote from: Dalva on March 11, 2011, 03:20:46 AM
also, provide a lot of example please?

For examples, you may visit

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Na%27vi/Nouns

They are helpful to me, don't know if it's the same to you ;)
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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MIPP

One thing about the dative: the direct object of sentences with "si" verbs take the dative ending.
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Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

that's right. because si verbs are a noun and a si so you are kinda "doing" the noun. that's why the object can't be direct.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Dalva

Irayo nitxan!
Really, much appreciated :)
Things seem much clearer now :D

MIPP

Quote from: Dalva on March 12, 2011, 07:26:05 AM
Irayo nitxan!
Really, much appreciated :)
Things seem much clearer now :D

This is why we're here... to help.  ;D

Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

I know this off-topic but... Dalva, is everything all right there in Indonesia after the tsunami?
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Dalva

Yea its all fine. Actually I didn't feel the shock. And my area's safe from tsunami since I'm not at the shore and I'm on java, jakarta to be exact.
Watched the news, it's very terrible there on japan.

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Dalva

another question: if i want to say "I Agree" should i say "Oel Mllte" or "Oeru Mllte"?

Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

just oe mllte. you don't have a subject (you can't agree someone) so you don't need the agentive suffix l, ìl, and also oe can't be in the dative because he's not an indirect object of something.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Sireayä mokri

Also, if you want to say I agree with you, then it's oe mllte ngahu and I agree on this - tsari oe mllte.
When the mirror speaks, the reflection lies.

MIPP

Quote from: Sireayä mokri on March 13, 2011, 07:38:27 AM
Also, if you want to say I agree with you, then it's oe mllte ngahu and I agree on this - tsari oe mllte.

Also, "I agree with you on this" would be:

Tsari, oe mllte ngahu
This-top, I agree you-with

The translation is:

"As for this, I agree with you"
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.