Adpositions and case endings

Started by Carborundum, March 29, 2010, 10:51:13 AM

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Carborundum

Simple question that I can't seem to find a straight answer to:
Can suffix-type adpositions be combined with case endings?

Examples:
I play with him --> oe pohur uvan si?
The child is between the trees --> 'evengìl tok meutralmìkamìt?

The second example makes me suspect that it can't be done, but it'd be nice to have that confirmed.
In any case, oe hu por uvan si and 'evengìl tok mìkam meutralìt are correct I hope?
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Plumps

I haven't seen a single example from Frommer where an adposition was used together with case. My train of thought is, since you can stick the adposition at the end of the word, as suffix, you don't need another case.

So, it's
oe hu po (or: pohu) uvan si.

The second example is interesting ... since tok is transitiv it should be 'evengìl tok na'rìngit and since you occupy the space between the trees, I have no idea how you would go about that... Can there be an ergative without accusative?
* 'evengìl tok mìkam meutral
???

kewnya txamew'itan

As plumps says, we've yet so see Frommer use an adposition and case.

In your first example, the dative ending indicates the object of the verb, i.e. the thing you are playing, whilst the hu indicates that he is playing with you.

For example, if I was playing *fewikxetse with you, I would say "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe".



Your second example is slightly more complicated but I think is another example of another object.

It all makes much more sense if we add in a "here" so, "the child is here between the trees". This gives us "tok 'evengìl fìtsenget(i) ayutralmìkam", we then remove the fìtsenget(i) to get "tok 'evengìl ayutralmìkam".

The only other thing to say about your example, is that you used me+, now whilst it is true that he can only really be between two of the trees, he can effectively be between more trees than that and you're unlikely to know how many trees there are or, even if you do, it isn't very important so ay+ is more appropriate.
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Hawnuyu atxen

Let me ask:
Why do you use the dative in  "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe"?
With "oe-l" and "fewikxetser-it" this would look better to me...
"Hrrap rä'ä si olo'ur smuktuä." ; "Ke'u ke lu ngay. Frakemit tung." (Assassin's Creed)

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Carborundum

Quote from: tìkawngä mungeyu on March 29, 2010, 01:05:58 PM
In your first example, the dative ending indicates the object of the verb, i.e. the thing you are playing, whilst the hu indicates that he is playing with you.

For example, if I was playing *fewikxetse with you, I would say "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe".
Ah, right. I keep forgetting it's the direct object which takes the dative case with si-verbs.

QuoteIt all makes much more sense if we add in a "here" so, "the child is here between the trees". This gives us "tok 'evengìl fìtsenget(i) ayutralmìkam", we then remove the fìtsenget(i) to get "tok 'evengìl ayutralmìkam".
Now that's clever. I like it.

QuoteThe only other thing to say about your example, is that you used me+, now whilst it is true that he can only really be between two of the trees, he can effectively be between more trees than that and you're unlikely to know how many trees there are or, even if you do, it isn't very important so ay+ is more appropriate.
My mental image of the situation was a kid standing between two very specific trees, but that's hardly important.
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omängum fra'uti

Quote from: Hawnuyu atxen on March 29, 2010, 01:13:18 PM
Let me ask:
Why do you use the dative in  "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe"?
With "oe-l" and "fewikxetser-it" this would look better to me...
All "si" derived verbs (Uvan si, nari si, eltu si, kelku si, etc) are intransitive by nature.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Hawnuyu atxen

Ohhhh... yeah, i forgot that...
But how is this thing with the dative? I thought that it only can mean "to someone" (oeru-to me, ngaru-to you, etc.)...
"Hrrap rä'ä si olo'ur smuktuä." ; "Ke'u ke lu ngay. Frakemit tung." (Assassin's Creed)

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omängum fra'uti

Commonly it can mean "to" or less often "for", but it can also take on the role of the former subject of a causative transitive verb (IE pol yerikit taron -> oel poru yerikit teykaron) and the direct object of a grammatically intransitive verb (IE a verb that is intransitive because grammar says so, not because the verb's nature is intransitive - basically any "si" form verb).
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Carborundum

Unless I'm mistaken, the indirect object of a transitive verb also gets the dative case. I give you the bow = Tìng oel ngaru tskot. (Although I suppose that might be considered a "to"-clause, i.e. I give the bow to you)
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#9
Quote from: Hawnuyu atxen on March 29, 2010, 02:04:38 PM
Ohhhh... yeah, i forgot that...
But how is this thing with the dative? I thought that it only can mean "to someone" (oeru-to me, ngaru-to you, etc.)...

To conclude, you use the dative for/when:
-you would use "to ___" in English
-the object of si constructed verbs.
-the original subject of transitive verbs when made causative.

Quote from: Carborundum on March 29, 2010, 01:15:28 PM
QuoteIt all makes much more sense if we add in a "here" so, "the child is here between the trees". This gives us "tok 'evengìl fìtsenget(i) ayutralmìkam", we then remove the fìtsenget(i) to get "tok 'evengìl ayutralmìkam".
Now that's clever. I like it.

Irayo. In this case, tsatseng would probably have been more appropriate but the point about using an alternative case/adposition.
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Hawnuyu atxen

"Hrrap rä'ä si olo'ur smuktuä." ; "Ke'u ke lu ngay. Frakemit tung." (Assassin's Creed)

Nikre tsa'usìn!