Author Topic: Adpositions and case endings  (Read 1103 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Carborundum

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
  • Karma: 24
Adpositions and case endings
« on: March 29, 2010, 10:51:13 am »
Simple question that I can't seem to find a straight answer to:
Can suffix-type adpositions be combined with case endings?

Examples:
I play with him --> oe pohur uvan si?
The child is between the trees --> 'evengìl tok meutralmìkamìt?

The second example makes me suspect that it can't be done, but it'd be nice to have that confirmed.
In any case, oe hu por uvan si and 'evengìl tok mìkam meutralìt are correct I hope?
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6199
  • Karma: 223
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 11:19:00 am »
I haven't seen a single example from Frommer where an adposition was used together with case. My train of thought is, since you can stick the adposition at the end of the word, as suffix, you don't need another case.

So, it's
oe hu po (or: pohu) uvan si.

The second example is interesting ... since tok is transitiv it should be 'evengìl tok na'rìngit and since you occupy the space between the trees, I have no idea how you would go about that... Can there be an ergative without accusative?
* 'evengìl tok mìkam meutral
???

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 01:05:58 pm »
As plumps says, we've yet so see Frommer use an adposition and case.

In your first example, the dative ending indicates the object of the verb, i.e. the thing you are playing, whilst the hu indicates that he is playing with you.

For example, if I was playing *fewikxetse with you, I would say "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe".



Your second example is slightly more complicated but I think is another example of another object.

It all makes much more sense if we add in a "here" so, "the child is here between the trees". This gives us "tok 'evengìl fìtsenget(i) ayutralmìkam", we then remove the fìtsenget(i) to get "tok 'evengìl ayutralmìkam".

The only other thing to say about your example, is that you used me+, now whilst it is true that he can only really be between two of the trees, he can effectively be between more trees than that and you're unlikely to know how many trees there are or, even if you do, it isn't very important so ay+ is more appropriate.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Hawnuyu atxen

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 5507
  • Karma: 36
  • 'aweyktan OPa'liatanevengä
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2010, 01:13:18 pm »
Let me ask:
Why do you use the dative in  "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe"?
With "oe-l" and "fewikxetser-it" this would look better to me...
"Hrrap rä'ä si olo'ur smuktuä." ; "Ke'u ke lu ngay. Frakemit tung." (Assassin's Creed)

Nikre tsa'usìn!

Offline Carborundum

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
  • Karma: 24
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2010, 01:15:28 pm »
In your first example, the dative ending indicates the object of the verb, i.e. the thing you are playing, whilst the hu indicates that he is playing with you.

For example, if I was playing *fewikxetse with you, I would say "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe".
Ah, right. I keep forgetting it's the direct object which takes the dative case with si-verbs.

Quote
It all makes much more sense if we add in a "here" so, "the child is here between the trees". This gives us "tok 'evengìl fìtsenget(i) ayutralmìkam", we then remove the fìtsenget(i) to get "tok 'evengìl ayutralmìkam".
Now that's clever. I like it.

Quote
The only other thing to say about your example, is that you used me+, now whilst it is true that he can only really be between two of the trees, he can effectively be between more trees than that and you're unlikely to know how many trees there are or, even if you do, it isn't very important so ay+ is more appropriate.
My mental image of the situation was a kid standing between two very specific trees, but that's hardly important.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2010, 01:59:29 pm »
Let me ask:
Why do you use the dative in  "uvan si fewikxetser(u) hu nga oe"?
With "oe-l" and "fewikxetser-it" this would look better to me...
All "si" derived verbs (Uvan si, nari si, eltu si, kelku si, etc) are intransitive by nature.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Hawnuyu atxen

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 5507
  • Karma: 36
  • 'aweyktan OPa'liatanevengä
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2010, 02:04:38 pm »
Ohhhh... yeah, i forgot that...
But how is this thing with the dative? I thought that it only can mean "to someone" (oeru-to me, ngaru-to you, etc.)...
"Hrrap rä'ä si olo'ur smuktuä." ; "Ke'u ke lu ngay. Frakemit tung." (Assassin's Creed)

Nikre tsa'usìn!

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 02:14:44 pm »
Commonly it can mean "to" or less often "for", but it can also take on the role of the former subject of a causative transitive verb (IE pol yerikit taron -> oel poru yerikit teykaron) and the direct object of a grammatically intransitive verb (IE a verb that is intransitive because grammar says so, not because the verb's nature is intransitive - basically any "si" form verb).
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Carborundum

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
  • Karma: 24
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2010, 03:04:02 pm »
Unless I'm mistaken, the indirect object of a transitive verb also gets the dative case. I give you the bow = Tìng oel ngaru tskot. (Although I suppose that might be considered a "to"-clause, i.e. I give the bow to you)
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2010, 03:15:22 pm »
Ohhhh... yeah, i forgot that...
But how is this thing with the dative? I thought that it only can mean "to someone" (oeru-to me, ngaru-to you, etc.)...

To conclude, you use the dative for/when:
-you would use "to ___" in English
-the object of si constructed verbs.
-the original subject of transitive verbs when made causative.

Quote
It all makes much more sense if we add in a "here" so, "the child is here between the trees". This gives us "tok 'evengìl fìtsenget(i) ayutralmìkam", we then remove the fìtsenget(i) to get "tok 'evengìl ayutralmìkam".
Now that's clever. I like it.

Irayo. In this case, tsatseng would probably have been more appropriate but the point about using an alternative case/adposition.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 03:20:30 pm by tìkawngä mungeyu »
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Hawnuyu atxen

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 5507
  • Karma: 36
  • 'aweyktan OPa'liatanevengä
Re: Adpositions and case endings
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2010, 03:30:08 pm »
Oe mengaru irayo seiyi nìtxan!
"Hrrap rä'ä si olo'ur smuktuä." ; "Ke'u ke lu ngay. Frakemit tung." (Assassin's Creed)

Nikre tsa'usìn!

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.17 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi