Author Topic: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II  (Read 13454 times)

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Offline Tanri

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2012, 02:17:54 pm »
Well, all of those afixes have a purpose, a meaning we use them for.

Some of them are mandatory, we must use them in certain grammatical situations, for example:
- agentive/patientive case endings on subject/object of transitive verb
- modal verb pairs require sunbjunctive infix <iv> in controlled verb
- attributive -a-, connecting the adjective to the noun

, others are used just when we need then, for alter the behavior of verb or place the event to specific point on timeline, to express affect/mood of the speaker, or to modify the meaning and change word species, like:
- <am>, <ìm>, <ìy>, <ay> time infixes
- <us>, <awn> participle creation infixes
- <ei>, <äng> affect/mood infixes
- -fkeyk, -tu, -tsyìp suffixes that changes the meaning of nouns

In you example, "untouchable", this is surely an adjective that has something to do with feasibility of some action, and prefixes tsuk-/ketsuk- fits perfectly to this:
to touch = ’ampi, being able to be touched (touchable) = tsuk’ampi, and a negative variant (untouchable) is ketsuk’ampi.
As an adjective, this must be connected to the noun with attributive -a-, or with verb lu (to be):
ioang aketsuk’ampi - "untouchable animal" (he bites you every time before you get close enough to touch him)
aysanhì lu ketsuk’ampi - "stars are untouchable" (you cannot touch them)

As Blue Elf said, know them before using them, is the best approach. :)
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2012, 05:42:57 pm »
irayo :]

also, when/when not are they used? by that I mean are certain -fixes used all the time, some of the time? as in, if I want to say 'untouchable', can I say 'kea tsun 'ampi' (forgive any mistakes, I still suck at Na'vi :P ) or do I use 'ketsampiuk'? basically, must infixes/suffixes/prefixes must always be used?

To answer the other 'half' of your question, there are times when you do not need any affixes (prefixes/suffixes/infixes) on verbs at all, and these are moderately common. A good simple example: Oel taron yerikit Although you need case markers on the nouns here, there are no affixes at all on the verb.

Someone once mentioned (maybe it was even K. Pawl) that a lot of new learners tend to overuse infixes, perhaps because they are novel. So, be careful not to over-infix verbs!

Yawey ngahu!
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Offline Neyn'ite Te Tsahìk Txeptsyìp'ite

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2012, 11:09:39 am »
but how do I know when not to use infixes?



oel ayngati kameie, ma aysmukan sì aysmuke, Eywa ayngahu.
oeyä tsmukan, ma Nick, oeru ngaytxoa livu. nìmwey tsurokx. nga yawne lu oer.

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2012, 02:19:01 pm »
Some very basic and simple rules:
- infixes go only into verbs (but infixed verb can change into different word class, like: us/awm creates adjective, tì- prefix + us creates noun)
- no infix means often present tense (but even more often tense is inferred from the context)
- if tense/aspect infix is used and then no infixed verbs follow, tense/aspect for these non infixed verbs usually stay the same until next infix used
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tanri

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2012, 02:47:07 pm »
I can give you one simple advice: Use infixes only when you need them.

While creating or translating text in Na’vi, regardless if you do this on your head or on the paper, think about which verbs to use, and how they can be adapted to express exactly what you want. In this moment you should think about infixes that heavily alter meaning and grammatical behavior of the verbs, like <äp>,<eyk>, <us>, <awn>.
After this, get together the sentence and place subjunctive <iv> infix as required by grammar rules (modal constructions, after fte/fteke, wishes, conditional clauses etc...).
Now you have grammatically correct and meaningful sentence, and only missing infixes are those placing actions to the specific point at timeline (tense/aspect) , and expressing speaker's attitude (<ei>, <äng>, <uy>, <ats>).
There is one rule that actually forbids infixes in a particular place: The controlled verb in modal construction takes only subjunctive and pre-first position infixes. All others must go to the modal verb.

Of course, more experienced speakers are not following this "step by step" procedure, but create sentences "on the fly", because they already know the required combination of infixes. However, the principle remains the same - use unly minimal amount of infixes to achieve the meaning, do not place all possible infixes and then think about what ones to remove for make things simple.
Tìvawmìri txopu rä’ä si. Nrr!

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2012, 08:06:28 pm »
I agree with Tanri. Keep it simple. You Don't need affixes unless it is a grammatical requirement(<iv>, -a-, noun case endings) or if you need it to change the meaning of a word. (Ketsuk'ampi)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2012, 09:53:00 pm »
And, I would start with mastering the simple stuff, rather than mastering the more complex stuff, kind of the opposite that Tanri suggested (and similar to what TA suggested). Tenses, <iv> and the proper use of -a- are all good stuff to learn first. Save participles, affect, etc. for later. And don't be afraid to ask questions!

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2012, 10:54:50 pm »
* Looks back at OP *

Sìltsan :) Although it looks like you overlooked these:

-ru doesn't go after consonants (canon example where it does?).
Also note that -ri comes after vowels, and -ìri comes after consonants.

It's a clarity thing.  -ìri means the same thing as -ri, but its usage is slightly different from -ri.

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2012, 04:01:38 pm »
* Looks back at OP *

Sìltsan :) Although it looks like you overlooked these:

-ru doesn't go after consonants (canon example where it does?).
Also note that -ri comes after vowels, and -ìri comes after consonants.

It's a clarity thing.  -ìri means the same thing as -ri, but its usage is slightly different from -ri.



ok fine fine fine.

::)

OP updated. have a +1.

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2012, 11:02:53 pm »
Iiiiiiirrraaaaaaaaayoooooo nìtxan :D

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

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Offline Seze Mune

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2012, 11:39:09 am »
A thousand apologies, but other than one mention by 'Oma Tirea of the suffix -vi, I cannot see its usage explained anywhere. I'm sure I must've missed it. Someone please show/tell me where it is? [Sänumvi]

Tsap'alute also, two small nits, ma Tirea:    

 -y Short for . Rare and colloquial. Used on pnonouns. Dont use if word ends with consonant.

These are under All Current Productive Suffixes, For Nouns or Pronouns Only, Cases.

Karma kukxi for your time and trouble, ma Tirea!

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2012, 12:02:59 pm »
A thousand apologies, but other than one mention by 'Oma Tirea of the suffix -vi, I cannot see its usage explained anywhere. I'm sure I must've missed it. Someone please show/tell me where it is? [Sänumvi]
-vi: Canon wiki
(-)nga': Na'viteri

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Seze Mune

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2012, 12:07:49 pm »
A thousand apologies, but other than one mention by 'Oma Tirea of the suffix -vi, I cannot see its usage explained anywhere. I'm sure I must've missed it. Someone please show/tell me where it is? [Sänumvi]
-vi: Canon wiki
(-)nga': Na'viteri

Thank you ma Lance. Those are great sources.  I was wondering why ngeyä Tirea Aean didn't have them in this thread, which covers so many other things.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2012, 02:16:20 pm »
A thousand apologies, but other than one mention by 'Oma Tirea of the suffix -vi, I cannot see its usage explained anywhere. I'm sure I must've missed it. Someone please show/tell me where it is? [Sänumvi]
-vi: Canon wiki
(-)nga': Na'viteri

Thank you ma Lance. Those are great sources.  I was wondering why ngeyä Tirea Aean didn't have them in this thread, which covers so many other things.

I do believe that these WERE in my list. However, I believe in one of these pages past, someone complained about productivity of them, so I removed them. (my list only is supposed to contain PRODUCTIVE affixes, ones people should bother learning because they can actually be applied, rather than unproductive ones that if learned, can be tempting to apply but won't work except for predefined words which already contain them. (deriving affixes, etc))

OH and I'll grab those nitpick English errors thanks. +1
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 02:18:39 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Seze Mune

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2012, 02:28:08 pm »
A thousand apologies, but other than one mention by 'Oma Tirea of the suffix -vi, I cannot see its usage explained anywhere. I'm sure I must've missed it. Someone please show/tell me where it is? [Sänumvi]
-vi: Canon wiki
(-)nga': Na'viteri

Thank you ma Lance. Those are great sources.  I was wondering why ngeyä Tirea Aean didn't have them in this thread, which covers so many other things.

I do believe that these WERE in my list. However, I believe in one of these pages past, someone complained about productivity of them, so I removed them. (my list only is supposed to contain PRODUCTIVE affixes, ones people should bother learning because they can actually be applied, rather than unproductive ones that if learned, can be tempting to apply but won't work except for predefined words which already contain them. (deriving affixes, etc))

OH and I'll grab those nitpick English errors thanks. +1

Ah, so if they aren't 'productive', then there is no point in learning them as separate from any particular dictionary entry.  Sänumvi being a case in point (-vi carries no meaning for me, so I'm not sure I'd be able to translate the intent of it). Or paynga' meaning moist, damp, humid (nga' carrying the concept of containing.)

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2012, 04:51:08 pm »
A thousand apologies, but other than one mention by 'Oma Tirea of the suffix -vi, I cannot see its usage explained anywhere. I'm sure I must've missed it. Someone please show/tell me where it is? [Sänumvi]
-vi: Canon wiki
(-)nga': Na'viteri

Thank you ma Lance. Those are great sources.  I was wondering why ngeyä Tirea Aean didn't have them in this thread, which covers so many other things.

I do believe that these WERE in my list. However, I believe in one of these pages past, someone complained about productivity of them, so I removed them. (my list only is supposed to contain PRODUCTIVE affixes, ones people should bother learning because they can actually be applied, rather than unproductive ones that if learned, can be tempting to apply but won't work except for predefined words which already contain them. (deriving affixes, etc))

OH and I'll grab those nitpick English errors thanks. +1

Ah, so if they aren't 'productive', then there is no point in learning them as separate from any particular dictionary entry.  Sänumvi being a case in point (-vi carries no meaning for me, so I'm not sure I'd be able to translate the intent of it). Or paynga' meaning moist, damp, humid (nga' carrying the concept of containing.)

Yes. That is my opinion.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2013, 09:32:09 am »
Updated. Added -tswo. Is anything else missing?

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2013, 09:43:09 am »
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how they are being listed.  But -tu is being listed as productive.  Horen (5.1.5.1) does not match this.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2013, 11:53:01 am »
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how they are being listed.  But -tu is being listed as productive.  Horen (5.1.5.1) does not match this.

FIxed.

-----

Updated cases to match CASES WITH DIPHTHONGS thing. I /think/ I did it right. Did I miss anything?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 07:41:23 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2013, 07:41:51 am »
Original Post updated with some corrections and clarifications.

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