Author Topic: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II  (Read 37535 times)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2013, 11:17:54 am »
Ma Tirea,
This is a wonderful guide and I would set this thread immediately sticky! :)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 11:26:44 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2013, 12:26:23 pm »
Hmmm.   I should have noticed this earlier.   :-[

But nì- (adverbs from nouns, adjectives, verbs...) is NOT productive according to Horen p24 (5.1.1.2).
(Edit:  That the general explanation for that section in Horen is that the described is not productive unless otherwise explicitly stated...)

And I agree with Tìtstewan that this quick reference should be sticky'd...

With so many infixes, prefixes, suffixes... being not productive, maybe your document should be expanded to cover both in two sections?  It is a helpful quick reference guide...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:58:19 pm by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2013, 12:31:51 pm »
Well, I've translated it to German! :)
A note to me: I have to send a PM to him about his guide.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 12:36:30 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Plumps

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2013, 01:19:37 pm »
But nì- (adverbs from nouns, adjectives, verbs...) is NOT productive according to Horen p24 (5.1.1.2).

It says nothing about productivity… and nì- is productive with adjectives.

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2013, 02:21:19 pm »
So, I sent a huge PM to Tirea about his guide. :)



Ma Tirea,

You should add this too:
        pem+ What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <nouns>?".
        pep+ What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <nouns>?".

Code:
        [b]pem+[/b] What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <nouns>?".
        [b]pep+[/b] What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <nouns>?".

[source]

Big Edit:

I have created a version as HTML. It have a better formatting tham the forum BB-Code.
It have a widht of 800px and it have a good line break.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 04:07:48 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2013, 12:10:21 pm »
Ma Tirea,
This is a wonderful guide and I would set this thread immediately sticky! :)
So, I sent a huge PM to Tirea about his guide. :)



Ma Tirea,

You should add this too:
        pem+ What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <nouns>?".
        pep+ What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <nouns>?".

Code:
        [b]pem+[/b] What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <nouns>?".
        [b]pep+[/b] What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <nouns>?".

[source]

Big Edit:

I have created a version as HTML. It have a better formatting tham the forum BB-Code.
It have a widht of 800px and it have a good line break.

sticky'd and added those two.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2013, 12:13:29 pm »
Ma Tirea! :D

Well done!

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2013, 12:19:11 pm »
Ma Tirea! :D

Well done!

Oh and yes I wrote most of it on a phone / tablet. I'll get to pasting the code from your PM right now. irayo!

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Offline Niri Te

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2013, 12:19:37 pm »
Here is where I get lost, WHAT does it mean when a word or infix is, or is NOT "Productive"? Examples of each please??
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 01:04:53 pm by Niri Te »
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2013, 12:23:35 pm »
Here is where I get lost, WHAT dies it mean when a word or infix is, or is NOT "Productive"? Examples of each please??


something that's not productive is useless right? You can't do something with something that's not productive. So it basically means that you are not allowed to come up with your own words by using something that's not productive. you ARE allowed to freely make words with productive things. Hope that makes sense. :)



Pasted. Irayo ma Tìtstewan!

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Offline Niri Te

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2013, 01:10:16 pm »
 IRAYO ma Tirea Aean. HOW do I find out if a word is productive or not? I'm sorry if I am bothering you people, but I am REALLY trying to become just HALF as good as Ateyo is here, otherwise, whats the reason for taking up space on Learnnavi?
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2013, 01:16:03 pm »
IRAYO ma Tirea Aean. HOW do I find out if a word is productive or not? I'm sorry if I am bothering you people, but I am REALLY trying to become just HALF as good as Ateyo is here, otherwise, whats the reason for taking up space on Learnnavi?
On Na'viteri, Horen LeNa'vi and/or LN Wikipedia and Tireas guide (this) ?


Kxeyeytsìp: :-[ :-[
[desc=(as)]to[/desc]. here is missing  -> = <--

This wasn't added in my PM, because I knew about it after I sent it to you.... :-[
        pe+ What. Turns a statement into A QUESTION. Used in order to say "What __<noun>__..?".
        pem+ What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <noun>s?".
        pep+ What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <noun>s?".

        pay+ What (plural). Turns a statement into A QUESTION. Used in order to say "what __<noun>s__..?".

Code:

        [b]pem+[/b] What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <noun>s?".
        [b]pep+[/b] What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <noun>s?".

 :-[
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 01:21:41 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2013, 01:26:32 pm »
Ninja'd by Tìtstewan (no surprise...  ;) )

Here is an example with perhaps a slightly different angle...


If it is listed in the dictionary, of course, it's an approved word.

As to productivity, Tirea's "cheat sheet" is very helpful at a quick glance as to what prefixes, suffixes, are approved to be used freely.
One can also dig deep into Horen to look further.  IE, Section 5 (first page) which is p24.

An example, would be that adding the suffix -tsyìp to a word IS productive.  Hence "palulukantysìp".
However adding the suffix -vi is NOT productive, meaning such a created word would have to be proposed through the LEP process for approval before being legitimately usable.

Personally, I think it's important to understand the non-productive prefixes, suffixes, etc. as one learns where the created word comes from, and to easier recognize what type of word it is.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 02:53:50 pm by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2013, 02:48:34 pm »
IRAYO ma Tirea Aean. HOW do I find out if a word is productive or not? I'm sorry if I am bothering you people, but I am REALLY trying to become just HALF as good as Ateyo is here, otherwise, whats the reason for taking up space on Learnnavi?
Not words are (non)productive, but suffixes (what you can attach at the end of word) and prefixes (what you can attach at the beginning of the word).
For example - you are free to create colors as nouns from adjective colors using -pin suffix:
rim (yellow, adjective) -> rimpin, yellow color, noun
ngul (grey, adjective) -> ngulpin, gray color, noun

Also you are free to create "groups" using sna- prefix:
talioang (sturmbeast) -> snatalioag, group of sturmbeasts
But sna- is productive only with living things other than people to indicate a natural grouping. You can't use for example snatskxe, group of rocks. This can do only Paul as an author of Na'vi and such word must be listed in dictionary. Such examples are like snatxärem (skeleton) or snafpìlfya (philosophy). HTH
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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2013, 04:11:09 pm »
The only exception to the productivity rule is if you are suggesting a new word/words in the Lexical Expansion Project forum. There, you can use to nonproductive affixes to suggest possible new word forms. Do note that root words that contain nonproductive affixes become new words when approved by K. Pawl.

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Offline Yawne Zize’ite

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2013, 06:26:41 pm »
English has productive and non-productive affixes too - I'd say that English has affixes with varying degrees of productivity.

For example, "-en", which makes verbs meaning "make [something]-er", is hardly productive. We still have "whiten", "blacken", "darken", "brighten", etc., but if you said "smallen" I wouldn't know what you meant. I can't think of any Naʼvi affixes like this; we might not even know which they are yet.

"-dom" is sort of productive. We have words like "geekdom" and "fandom" that were created in the 20th century. But "diplomatdom" just sounds wrong; you can only add "-dom" to some words. I suspect Naʼvi -ngaʼ and many other common affixes are like this. If we were native speakers we'd know which words they fit on and which they don't, and be able to use them to coin new words. But we're not, which is why only Paul can make these words.

"-er", in the meaning of "one who does", is productive. There are words you shouldn't add it to because there is already a word formed differently (e.g. correspond/correspondent, judge/judge), but the rule is that you can add it to any verb and get a valid English word, and even some things that aren't verbs ("ten-footer," "truther"). Naʼvi -yu is, if anything, more limited.

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #76 on: July 20, 2013, 10:23:53 am »
IRAYO ma Tirea Aean. HOW do I find out if a word is productive or not? I'm sorry if I am bothering you people, but I am REALLY trying to become just HALF as good as Ateyo is here, otherwise, whats the reason for taking up space on Learnnavi?
On Na'viteri, Horen LeNa'vi and/or LN Wikipedia and Tireas guide (this) ?


Kxeyeytsìp: :-[ :-[
[desc=(as)]to[/desc]. here is missing  -> = <--

This wasn't added in my PM, because I knew about it after I sent it to you.... :-[
        pe+ What. Turns a statement into A QUESTION. Used in order to say "What __<noun>__..?".
        pem+ What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <noun>s?".
        pep+ What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <noun>s?".

        pay+ What (plural). Turns a statement into A QUESTION. Used in order to say "what __<noun>s__..?".

Code:

        [b]pem+[/b] What two. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (dual). This is used to ask "What two <noun>s?".
        [b]pep+[/b] What three. Turns a statement into A QUESTION (trial). This is used to ask "What three <noun>s?".

 :-[

Done.

IRAYO ma Tirea Aean. HOW do I find out if a word is productive or not? I'm sorry if I am bothering you people, but I am REALLY trying to become just HALF as good as Ateyo is here, otherwise, whats the reason for taking up space on Learnnavi?

Precisely this:

English has productive and non-productive affixes too - I'd say that English has affixes with varying degrees of productivity.

For example, "-en", which makes verbs meaning "make [something]-er", is hardly productive. We still have "whiten", "blacken", "darken", "brighten", etc., but if you said "smallen" I wouldn't know what you meant. I can't think of any Naʼvi affixes like this; we might not even know which they are yet.

"-dom" is sort of productive. We have words like "geekdom" and "fandom" that were created in the 20th century. But "diplomatdom" just sounds wrong; you can only add "-dom" to some words. I suspect Naʼvi -ngaʼ and many other common affixes are like this. If we were native speakers we'd know which words they fit on and which they don't, and be able to use them to coin new words. But we're not, which is why only Paul can make these words.

"-er", in the meaning of "one who does", is productive. There are words you shouldn't add it to because there is already a word formed differently (e.g. correspond/correspondent, judge/judge), but the rule is that you can add it to any verb and get a valid English word, and even some things that aren't verbs ("ten-footer," "truther"). Naʼvi -yu is, if anything, more limited.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2013, 03:04:00 pm »
Well, I think, this guide need a little update, right? ;)
--> ke-

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2013, 04:07:17 pm »
Well, I think, this guide need a little update, right? ;)
--> ke-

Indeed. Done. :)

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Re: Easy Guide to Na'vi Prefixes, Infixes, and Suffixes II
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2013, 05:37:26 am »
Ma Tirea Aean,

Quote
       -a- This means the adjective is paired with the noun directly before it (to the left).
This is not only left, it's left or right. -> before or after (to the left or right). ;)

About ke-
I write this in the German version:
Quote from: Update:
   Nur für Adjektive :

        -a- Dies markiert ein Adjektiv, das ein Substantiv beschreibt, wobei das -a- zum jeweilig nächsten Substantiv zeigt.
        nì- Dies wandelt ein Adjektiv in ein Adverb um. Es ist ähnlich wie im englischen -ly.

        ke- Dies wird benutzt, um ein negatives/gegenteiliges Adjektiv zu erzeugen. Beispiel: teng "gleich" - keteng "ungleich" / eyawr "wahr" - keyawr "unwahr"
             Wichtig! Adjektive die bereits ein negativen Pendant im Wörterbuch haben, dürfen nicht mit ke- verwendet werden! Es gibt auch im Deutschen kein *ungroß oder *unalt.
             Beachte: Bei Adjektive mit le- verschmilzt ke- mit le- zu kel- -> lekin "nötig" - kelkin "unnötig".
                          Achtung: *kele- > kel-, es sei denn, eine unzulässige Konsonantengruppe würde entstehen. In diesem Fall bleibt kele-. Beispiel: kelemweypey "sich nicht gedulden, ungeduldig"

    Nur für Adverbien :

        nìk- Gebildet aus nì- + ke- wird benutzt, um negative Adverbien zu erzeugen.
             Beispiele: kelkin "unnötigerweise" <- In diesem Beispiel wurde nì- auf ein negativen Adjektiv hinzugefügt, um eine negatives Adverb zu bilden.
                            nìktungzup "vorsichtig, fest" <- Hier wurde nì- auf ein negativen Verb hinzugefügt: nì- + (ke + tungzup "fallen lassen") = nìktungzup Das "e" fällt weg.

Translation:
Quote from: Update:
   For adjectives only :

        -a- This means the adjective is paired with the noun directly before or after (to the left or right).
        nì- This is productive to turn an adjective into an adverb. It's similar to English -ly ending.

        ke- This is used to create a negative or opposite adjective. E.g.: teng "same, equal" - keteng "different, not equal" / eyawr "correct" - keyawr "incorrect"
             Important! Adjectives that already have a negative counterpart in the dictionary should not be used with ke-! Just as in English we don't have *unyoung, *unold, *unbig.
             Note: For adjectives with le- merges ke- with le- to kel- -> lekin "necessary" - kelkin "unnecessary".
                          Attention: *kele- > kel-, unless it would create an impermissible consonant cluster, in which case it remains kele-. E.g.: kelemweypey "impatient"

    For adverbs only :

        nìk- Created by nì- + ke- is used to create negative adverbs.
             Examples: kelkin "unnecessarily" <- In this example nì- is added to a negative adjective to create a negative adverb.
                            nìktungzup "carefully, firmly" <- Here was nì- added to a negative verb: nì- + (ke + tungzup "drop, let fall") = nìktungzup The "e" drops away.

Code:
Quote
       [b]ke-[/b] This is used to create a negative or opposite adjective. E.g.: [b]teng[/b] "same, equal" - [b][color=brown]ke[/color]teng[/b] "different, not equal" / [b]eyawr[/b] "correct" - [b][color=brown]ke[/color]yawr[/b] "incorrect"
             [u]Important![/u] Adjectives that already have a negative counterpart in the dictionary [u]should not[/u] be used with [b]ke-[/b]! Just as in English we don't have [i]*unyoung[/i], [i]*unold[/i], [i]*unbig[/i].
             [u]Note:[/u] For adjectives with [b]le-[/b] merges [b]ke-[/b] with [b]le-[/b] to [b]kel-[/b] -> [b]lekin[/b] "necessary" - [b][color=brown]kel[/color]kin[/b] "unnecessary".
                          [b]Attention:[/b] [i][color=maroon]*kele-[/color][/i] [b]> kel-[/b], unless it would create an impermissible consonant cluster, [u]in which case it remains [b]kele-[/b][/u]. E.g.: [b][color=brown]kele[/color]mweypey[/b] "impatient"

    [b][u]For adverbs only[/u][/b] :

        [b]nìk-[/b] Created by [b]nì-[/b] + [b]ke-[/b] is used to create negative adverbs.
             [b]Examples:[/b] [b][color=brown]nì[/color]kelkin[/b] "unnecessarily" <- In this example [b]nì-[/b] is added to a negative adjective to create a negative adverb.
                            [b][color=brown]nìk[/color]tungzup[/b] "carefully, firmly" <- Here was [b]nì-[/b] added to a negative verb: [b]nì-[/b] + ([b]ke[/b] + [b]tungzup[/b] "drop, let fall") = [b][color=brown]nìk[/color]tungzup[/b] The "e" drops away.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 05:48:09 am by Tìtstewan »

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