Author Topic: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi  (Read 7826 times)

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Offline Taronyu

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2010, 06:28:53 pm »
So, I've seen some speculation by a couple people with the <ol> infix being capable of the same functions as the <er> infix.  Considering it is the opposite of the <er>, wouldn't it be capable of going inside of another infix?

Also, wouldn't this make its meaning more clear as well? Considering the perfective tense does NOT imply past, present, or future, why is it that it is commonly used to mean past tense?  I'm thinking that this is just because of the way that perfective works in English.

So anyway, that's what I'm wondering about, so if someone can discuss that'd be great.

It should be able to. I agree with you about aspect in English, as well. The problem is that we don't have enough examples.

Offline Uniltse'ayu

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2010, 08:13:03 pm »
I wonder why this isn't a sticky haha
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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2010, 08:16:04 pm »
I wonder why this isn't a sticky haha

There are a few errors in the initial list, and it's not entirely clear. I'm making another one, should be done in twenty minutes.

Offline Tsamsteu

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2010, 06:52:25 pm »
..kaltxi =], new here, attempting :-\ to learn na'vi, been reading up on it the past couple of days, bit cconfused with some of the infixes, for example, is the <er> infix used for a present progressive more than just a present tense? Also, if you were to add the suffix <ei> or <ang> to the ending syllable, and you also wanted to declare a tense, would you put both a suffix and an infix in after the first syllable? and lastly, if i were to say, i can speak na'vi, there are two verbs, to be able (which is tsun) and speak, which is (plltxe), would you treat one of these verbs as an infintive while conjugating the other, for example: oel ts<er>un pllxte na'vi, or am I incorrect?  Irayoo =]
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Offline Night Raider

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2010, 08:12:19 pm »
Irayo for this guide ma tsmuktu! It's very easy nd helpful.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2010, 11:45:17 pm »
..kaltxi =], new here, attempting :-\ to learn na'vi, been reading up on it the past couple of days, bit cconfused with some of the infixes, for example, is the <er> infix used for a present progressive more than just a present tense? Also, if you were to add the suffix <ei> or <ang> to the ending syllable, and you also wanted to declare a tense, would you put both a suffix and an infix in after the first syllable? and lastly, if i were to say, i can speak na'vi, there are two verbs, to be able (which is tsun) and speak, which is (plltxe), would you treat one of these verbs as an infintive while conjugating the other, for example: oel ts<er>un pllxte na'vi, or am I incorrect?  Irayoo =]

<er> is an aspect of the verb, it is the imperfective aspect which means it is the opposite of <ol> and implies that an action is unfinished and/or is/was/will be ongoing whereas <ol> implies the action is/was/will be complete.

<ei> and <äng> aren't suffixes, they just take a later position in the verb. In the verb "tung" (to allow) if we put it into the near future with a laudative <ei> we should get t<ìy><ei>ung as the infix positions (discounting that for reflexives and participles as they get more complicated) and it would be the same for all monosyllabic verbs. For a disyllabic veb e.g. "pähem" (to arrive) with the same infixes would be p<ìy>äh<ei>em because tenses, moods and aspects appear after the consonant(s) of the second to last syllable and affectual infixes appear after the consonant in the last syllable. In trisyallbic verbs e.g. "kllfriyo'" (to be responsible) you follow the same rule as before and get kllfr<ìy>iy<ei>o'.

Lastly, in I can speak Na'vi the imperfective infix is probably unnecessary as the "can" sort of implies that the ability is ongoing on it's own. Other than that the plltxe probably needs a subjunctive as it is a subordinate verb.

So, I've seen some speculation by a couple people with the <ol> infix being capable of the same functions as the <er> infix.  Considering it is the opposite of the <er>, wouldn't it be capable of going inside of another infix?

Also, wouldn't this make its meaning more clear as well? Considering the perfective tense does NOT imply past, present, or future, why is it that it is commonly used to mean past tense?  I'm thinking that this is just because of the way that perfective works in English.

So anyway, that's what I'm wondering about, so if someone can discuss that'd be great.

<ol> may well be able to fit inside tense infixes to make a mood-tense thing but at the moment we have no confirmation of this or what they would be (although it isn't difficult to guess).

Also, what you are thinking of as the perfective is actually the perfect which I believe is the origin of the aspect's name, if you think about it though, the pluperfect and simple past are also both perfective tenses as they both imply that the action is completed. If the perfective aspect is being used to imply that the action is in the past in Na'vi, it is being used incorrectly.
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Offline Taw sì Syal

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2010, 07:37:22 pm »
Kaltxì,
So what is the difference between the infix <am> (pretirite verb) and the infix <ol> (perfective aspect verb)? In other words (and this might sound obvious) what is the difference between a past action and a finished past action?
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Offline Tsamsteu

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2010, 07:47:20 pm »
..what it looks like to me is just the difference between a regular tense (such as past) versus a perfect tense. For example, in english first:

I hunted.

Oe t<am>aron ----> utilize the past tense infix, while

I have hunted.

Oe t<ol>aron------> utilize the perfect tense <ol>

Hope that correctly portrays the difference.  :)
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2010, 12:55:43 pm »
Kaltxì,
So what is the difference between the infix <am> (pretirite verb) and the infix <ol> (perfective aspect verb)? In other words (and this might sound obvious) what is the difference between a past action and a finished past action?

..what it looks like to me is just the difference between a regular tense (such as past) versus a perfect tense. For example, in english first:

I hunted.

Oe t<am>aron ----> utilize the past tense infix, while

I have hunted.

Oe t<ol>aron------> utilize the perfect tense <ol>

Hope that correctly portrays the difference.  :)

sort of.

<ol> is not a tense and <am> is not the pretirite.

<am> simply means the event being described was in the past.

<ol> makes the action perfective or finished/complete.

There isn't a very good translation of t<am>aron as in English that tense is always perfective, in Na'vi this is not the case and so t<a<r>m>aron (the imperfective past form of the verb taron) would mean "in the past I was hunting".

<ol> in taron on its own makes it perfective and so completed and would make it mean something like "I finished hunting"/"I stopped hunting" without the need for an auxiliary verb and participle.
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Offline tute nuereime

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2010, 02:32:25 pm »
so <am> would be used in context like "what did you do yesterday. i hunted. O what did you hunt?..."

<ol> would be used in context like "i use to hunt, but i haven't hunted in a long time"(something along those lines. not exactly that but something to show that you did it but you dont do it now.")

and <a<r>m> would be used like "it was so cool. the other day when i was hunting i..." the <a<r>m> shows that you are talking about something you were doing but it is in the past. like retelling a story.

right?
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2010, 04:24:14 pm »
<ol> doesn't say you haven't hunted in a long time, or that the hunting was in the past.  Just that it is a completed event, and you're not talking about something that happened during it.  To understand the latter part, consider...

"I went hunting yesterday."  Hunting in this case is perfective - it's a specific event which has been completed.  More properly this would be past tense + perfective, possibly <alm>.  (Though Na'vi doesn't require you give an aspect, and I'm unclear on when you would and when you would not.)
"While I was hunting yesterday I got sick."  Hunting in this case is imperfective - while it may be the same hunting as the previous example, you're talking about something that happened during the hunting, so when you got sick, hunting was still ongoing.  More properly, this would be past tense + imperfective, possibly <arm>.

Both perfective and imperfective can equally apply to future events...  But this is an odd case for English speakers because in English, like past tense is perfective, present and future tense is imperfective.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2010, 06:01:57 pm »
so <am> would be used in context like "what did you do yesterday. i hunted. O what did you hunt?..."

<ol> would be used in context like "i use to hunt, but i haven't hunted in a long time"(something along those lines. not exactly that but something to show that you did it but you dont do it now.")

and <a<r>m> would be used like "it was so cool. the other day when i was hunting i..." the <a<r>m> shows that you are talking about something you were doing but it is in the past. like retelling a story.

right?

Depending on context, yesterday might be recent (<ìm>) but in theory that is the correct use of <am>.

I used to hunt would be imperfective with <er> as the action was ongoing, I haven't hunted in a long time would be perfective as the action is complete (and in this case it's the perfect tense which, like the imperfect tense (recent imperfective) give you a good clue for aspect).

That is the right way to use <a<r>m>, it refers to an action that was ongoing in the past (but not recent past).

<ol> doesn't say you haven't hunted in a long time, or that the hunting was in the past.  Just that it is a completed event, and you're not talking about something that happened during it.  To understand the latter part, consider...

"I went hunting yesterday."  Hunting in this case is perfective - it's a specific event which has been completed.  More properly this would be past tense + perfective, possibly <alm>.  (Though Na'vi doesn't require you give an aspect, and I'm unclear on when you would and when you would not.)
"While I was hunting yesterday I got sick."  Hunting in this case is imperfective - while it may be the same hunting as the previous example, you're talking about something that happened during the hunting, so when you got sick, hunting was still ongoing.  More properly, this would be past tense + imperfective, possibly <arm>.

That first one would actually be gerundative but could be rewritten I hunted with no change in meaning and so could be written as perfective.

Second one is good. I should really have come up with some examples for my post, good job.
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Offline tute nuereime

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2010, 09:00:57 pm »
"I went hunting yesterday."  Hunting in this case is perfective - it's a specific event which has been completed.  More properly this would be past tense + perfective, possibly <alm>.  (Though Na'vi doesn't require you give an aspect, and I'm unclear on when you would and when you would not.)
"While I was hunting yesterday I got sick."  Hunting in this case is imperfective - while it may be the same hunting as the previous example, you're talking about something that happened during the hunting, so when you got sick, hunting was still ongoing.  More properly, this would be past tense + imperfective, possibly <arm>.
so you would use <ol> when you are talking about an event that is complete or stands alone and <er> when this event is on-going along with the normal infix.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 09:36:16 pm by tute nuereime »
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2010, 12:38:41 am »
That first one would actually be gerundative but could be rewritten I hunted with no change in meaning and so could be written as perfective.

Second one is good. I should really have come up with some examples for my post, good job.
Quite correct on the first one.  The English lacking of distinguishing aspect can be a bit limiting, so I tried to construct a sentence that made it clear the hunting happened in the past, and it was being seen as a single event, which is why I expanded a little on "I hunted".

so you would use <ol> when you are talking about an event that is complete or stands alone and <er> when this event is on-going along with the normal infix.
For <ol>, it's not so much if it is complete or not, just if you are talking about it in the terms of a single completed event within the tense of the verb.  Meaning you can still talk about something that hasn't even started yet, as long as it can be viewed as a whole and that is how you are treating it.

With <er> it's an on-going, or an event which can be seen with internal structure...  Meaning it may otherwise be a certain event, but if you're talking about some part of it other than the whole thing, that's imperfective.

Either <ol> or <er> can be used with or without the addition of tense.  (But we only have one example and an extrapolated guess about the rules for combining tense and aspect together.)
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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2010, 12:58:20 am »
Here's a good description of tense and aspect by William over in the grammar forum.  He has had much more linguistic experience than I have and gives a much clearer explanation.
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Offline tute nuereime

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2010, 02:14:40 pm »
so like william said on his post. <ol> is used when talking about a single event that doesnt need anymore information. the event can be seen as a picture. (i went to the store and got chips). you use <er> when the event is going to be explained or talked about. the event can be seen as a clip of a movie. (so i went to the store the other day...)

and what fixes am i missing on the first page? i know i am missing <us> and <iv>.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 02:22:20 pm by tute nuereime »
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2010, 03:30:02 pm »
you seem to be missing the following:

<ev> although it's meaning is highly speculative
<uy> which is from the wikipedia page but uncited so is to be taken with a pinch of salt (it should be a formal affectual infix, like <ei> or <äng>)
and <arm>, the past imperfective infix

Other than that, just <us> and <iv>
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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2010, 05:01:31 am »
Kaltxì, frapo!
I have a simple question, but i was wondering on this... how do you decide where are position <1>, <2> and <3> (verb infixes)? Are the <1> and <2> after the first letter always???
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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2010, 09:53:30 am »
A syllable in Na'vi can be written CCVC (with C being a consonant and V a vowel), the infix positions are as follows:

1 syllable verbs: CC<1><2><3>VC
2 syllable verbs: CC<1><2>VCCC<3>VC
3 syllable verbs: CCVCCC<1><2>VCCC<3>VC
4 syllable verbs: CCVCCCVCCC<1><2>VCCC<3>VC

And I think you see the pattern.
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Re: easy guide to the suffixes, infixes, and prefixes of Na'Vi
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2010, 10:19:41 am »
Irayo ma tsmuktu! One less question to be answered for me...(i still have lot to learn and understand) [and again: sorry for my english...]
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