Author Topic: Infix list  (Read 6613 times)

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Offline Antony

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Infix list
« on: December 24, 2009, 06:27:31 am »
I think it would be useful if someone could post all the infixes we currently know for verbs.

Offline Skxawng

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2009, 10:25:54 am »
What I have as a list, including infixes we know should exist but don't know what they are, is...


Tense (First position)...
Past(Unknown)I have been hunting
Past proximate<ìm>Oe t<ìm>ronI was just hunting
Present(None)Oe taronI hunt
Future proximate(Unknown, speculatively <ìy>)Oe *t<ìy>ronI am about to go hunt
Future<ay>Oe t<ay>ronI will hunt
Aspect (First position)...
Imperfective<er>Oe t<er>aronI was hunting
Perfective<ol>Oe t<ol>aronI hunted
Combined aspect+tense (First position)
Past proximate imperfective<ìr><m>Oe t<ìr><m>aronI was just hunting
Other (First position)...
Unknown (Speculatively subjunctive)<iv>Oe t<iv>aronWere I hunting
Speaker attitude (Second position)...
Laudative<ei>Oe tar<ei>onI hunt, and like it
Pejorative<äng>Oe tar<äng>onI hunt, but I don't like it (Think Neytiri when she saves Jake)
Uncertainty/indirect knowledge(Unknown)
He might hunt

And of course first position goes in the penultimate syllable, second position goes in the final syllable.  For monosyllabic words they both go in the first syllable, with first position infixes before second position infixes.

Within a syllable, they go after the initial consonant (Though I suspect it may really be before the vowel - usually not a difference but it is in a few cases).

Other things we've seen which may be infixes...

<ev> from k<ìy><ev>ame (See you again soon)
<ov>, <el>, <us> from an interview with Dr. Frommer



-------------------


« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 12:52:26 am by Skxawng »


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Offline Beduino

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 11:10:57 am »
Nice, it surely help to see things more clear.

About laudative and pejorative, as long as I could understand, it only demonstrates the way the speaker feels about what he is saying. These infixes have nothing to do with the way he was doing.

so i guess they are used to express feelings, nothing else.

But well, who knows what Frommer has in his mind. ^^

Now a few considerations:

Quote
<ìr> - was doing (ing past) -- Hunt:  Taron > T<ìr>aron  >  Oe-l T<ìr>aron "I was hunting"
<ìm> - Past Tense just now did --  Hunt:  Taron > T<ìm>aron > Oe-l T<ìm>aron "I was just hunting"
<ei> - Present tense -- Hunt: Taron > T<ei>aron > Oel-T<ei>aron "I am hunting
<ay> - Future Tense, will do -- Hunt: Taron > T<ay>aron > Oe-l T<ar>aron "I will hunt"

Aspect Infixes
<m> ??
<er>  be doing (ing) -- Hunt:  Taron > T<er>aron Oe-l lu t<er>aron "I am hunting" Somehow I think this is wrong.
<ol>  have done  -- Hunt: Taron > T<ol>aron > Oe-l T<ol>aron "I have hunted"

going for the information I read, we have 5 tenses: Past, recent past, present, future and recent future
but the present tense is unmarked, so taron in the present is still taron

about the aspect infixes, they are just used to indicate if the action was complete or if its an ongoing action. I'll put the text here.

Quote
The first infix position is taken by infixes for tense and aspect, or both, as well as by participle and reflexive forms, which precede tense and aspect when they co-occur. Tenses are past, recent past, present (unmarked), future, and immediate future; aspects are perfective (completed or contained) and imperfective (ongoing or uncontained). The aspectual forms are not found in English but are somewhat like the distinction between 'having done' and 'was doing'.

taron [hunt] "hunts"
t‹ìm›aron [hunt‹REC›] "just hunted"
t‹ay›aron [hunt‹FUT›] "will hunt"
t‹er›aron [hunt‹IMPV›] "hunting"
t‹ol›aron [hunt‹PFV›] "hunted"
t‹ì‹r›m›aron [hunt‹REC‹IMPV››] "was just hunting"

Other temporal and aspectual forms include tovaron, telaron, tusaron, tairon. Tense and aspect need not be marked when they can be understood by context or elsewhere in the sentence.

The second infix position is taken by infixes for affect (speaker attitude, whether positive or negative) and for evidentiality (uncertainty or indirect knowledge). For example, in the greeting in the section on nouns, Oel ngati kameie "I See you", the verb kame "to See" is inflected positively as kam‹ei›e to indicate the pleasure the speaker feels in the meeting. In the subsequent sentence, Oeri ontu teya längu "My nose is full (of his smell)", however, the phrase teya lu "is full" is inflected negatively as teya l‹äng›u to indicate the speaker's distaste at the experience. Examples with both infix positions filled:

t‹ìrm›ar‹ei›on [hunt‹REC.IMPV›‹LAUD›] "yeah, was just hunting": The speaker is happy about it, whether due to success or just the pleasure of the hunt
t‹ay›ar‹äng›on [hunt‹FUT›‹PEJ›] "ugh, will hunt": The speaker is anxious about or bored by it.

http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Learn-Navi-Pocket-Guide.pdf
by Karyu Amawey

hope I didn't confused you more  :-X


« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 11:26:12 am by beduino »
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Offline Abraleth

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 12:28:34 pm »
Quote
Other temporal and aspectual forms include tovaron, telaron, tusaron, tairon.

Do you think Paul Frommer will perhaps give a translation for these conjugations?

Quote
The second infix position is taken by infixes for affect (speaker attitude, whether positive or negative) and for evidentiality (uncertainty or indirect knowledge).

Is there a separate infix for uncertainty, or would the speaker just use the pejorative <äng>?

Also, how would the Na'vi indicate the mood of a verb, such as the subjunctive, conditional, imperative, etc.? And what about the reflexive and participial infixes? As far as we know, the mood, reflexive, and participial infixes go in the first position, but do we actually know what they are?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 12:40:20 pm by Abraleth »
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 12:30:59 pm »

Any infix that deals with time tense (ie past, present, imperfect, future) go after the first syllable.

Eek!

In a word of two or more syllables, the tense/aspect infixes go in the next to last syllable, as in t<ol>aron from taron, pän<ol>utìng from pänutìng.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 12:34:01 pm by wm.annis »
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Offline Abraleth

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 12:43:56 pm »
Eek!

In a word of two or more syllables, the tense/aspect infixes go in the next to last syllable, as in t<ol>aron from taron, pän<ol>utìng from pänutìng.

Does that mean that the infix goes before the penultimate syllable, or does it replace the penultimate syllable?
Ngal Na'viti plltxe tsun srak?
Ngari si nìwoti neu, slä sngä’ike tì’ekoti ne tuteri alahe tìrey fu aytsat amuiä.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 12:47:08 pm »
Does that mean that the infix goes before the penultimate syllable, or does it replace the penultimate syllable?

Ah.  Yes.  It's always fun to talk about syllable structure in an infixing language...

The infix is inserted into what would otherwise be the penultimate syllable and shoves everything down to the right.  A single tense/aspect infix will be sitting in the antepenult when this stressful procedure is finished.  :)
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Offline wm.annis

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 12:48:42 pm »
As far as we know, the mood, reflexive, and participial infixes go in the first position, but do we actually know what they are?

Nope.

There are suspicions about the infix <iv> but Prrton and I are still disputing about that.  As of this morning, I suspect we're both missing something.
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Offline Abraleth

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 12:55:03 pm »
Ah, irayo nìtxan, wm.annis! At least verbs don't undergo lenition as much as nouns do. It's hard enough just trying to figure out how to arrange everything!
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2009, 02:07:45 pm »
Skxawng, I think your list is quite a bit wrong.  For one, from the description Frommer gave, it sounds like <ìr><m> is effectively <ìm> + <er> (Past proximate combined with imperfective aspect) undergoing some sort of change.  So calling <ìr> on it's own (despite how it's marked) may be in error.

I'm not sure where you saw <ei> in the first position, but that doesn't seem like it would make sense to be there, because then <ei> becomes ambiguous on monosyllabic words where both positions end up in the same syllable.

What I have as a list, including infixes we know should exist but don't know what they are, is...

Tense (First position)...
Past(Unknown)
Past proximate<ìm>
Present(None)
Future proximate(Unknown, speculatively <ìy>)
Future<ay>
Aspect (First position)...
Imperfective<er>
Perfective<ol>
Combined aspect+tense (First position)
Past proximate imperfective<ìr><m>
Other (First position)...
Unknown (Speculatively conditional)<iv>
Speaker attitude (Second position)...
Laudative<ei>
Pejorative<äng>
Uncertainty/indirect knowledge(Unknown)

And of course first position goes in the penultimate syllable, second position goes in the final syllable.  For monosyllabic words they both go in the first syllable, with first position infixes before second position infixes.

Within a syllable, they go after the initial consonant (Though I suspect it may really be before the vowel - usually not a difference but it is in a few cases).

Other things we've seen which may be infixes...

<ev> from k<ìy><ev>ame (See you again soon)
<ov>, <el>, <us> from an interview with Dr. Frommer
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 03:16:59 pm by umängam fra'uti »
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Offline Beduino

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2009, 02:14:18 pm »
Quote
Aspect (First position)...
Imperfective   <er>
Imperfective   <er>

ou just put imperfective 2 times :D
but was a great job!

irayo!
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2009, 03:17:48 pm »
What, you want everything to be perfect...ive...?

Fixed.
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Offline Beduino

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2009, 03:37:12 pm »
 :P
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Offline Skxawng

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2009, 03:47:11 pm »
ack, thanks dude!

I edited my original post so that the probably more correct version (yours) is above my post. That I won't be spreading misinformation.

It would be helpful, though, if you found the time, to give phrase examples using a verb like I did with Hunting, for the less-linguistically knowledgeable (me, for example :P)


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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2009, 04:31:08 pm »
Tense (First position)...
Past(Unknown)I have been hunting
Past proximate<ìm>Oe t<ìm>ronI was just hunting
Present(None)Oe taronI hunt
Future proximate(Unknown, speculatively <ìy>)Oe *t<ìy>ronI am about to go hunt
Future<ay>Oe t<ay>ronI will hunt
Aspect (First position)...
Imperfective<er>Oe t<er>aronI was hunting
Perfective<ol>Oe t<ol>aronI hunted
Combined aspect+tense (First position)
Past proximate imperfective<ìr><m>Oe t<ìr><m>aronI was just hunting
Other (First position)...
Unknown (Speculatively subjunctive)<iv>Oe t<iv>aronWere I hunting
Speaker attitude (Second position)...
Laudative<ei>Oe tar<ei>onI hunt, and like it
Pejorative<äng>Oe tar<äng>onI hunt, but I don't like it (Think Neytiri when she saves Jake)
Uncertainty/indirect knowledge(Unknown)
He might hunt

If someone with linguistic knowledge cares to correct me, feel free.
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Offline Beduino

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2009, 06:27:41 pm »
Quote
Tense (First position)...
Past   (Unknown)      I have been hunting
Past proximate   <ìm>   Oe t<ìm>ron   I was just hunting
Present   (None)   Oe taron   I hunt
Future proximate   (Unknown, speculatively <ìy>)   Oe *t<ìy>ron   I am about to go hunt
Future   <ay>   Oe t<ay>ron   I will hunt

You just forgot the "a" in some Na'vi examples!  ;D

"t<ìm>aron, and not "t<ìm>ron"

Now I have a question, we have:

Past proximate infixe - <ìm> - t<ìm>aron
Imperfective infixe - <er>    - t<er>aron

when you combine them, it become - <ì<r>m>  - t<ì<r>m>aron

there is a rule to drop the "e" from the imperfective infixe, wich can be used in other combinations, or it's just an example we have and are using?

I would appreciate if someone could clarify that to me :D

btw, Superb work!
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2009, 06:34:06 pm »
I don't know if it's directly from Dr. Frommer or something someone added later, but the source I saw has it written <ìr><m>, though I agree <ì<r>m> does make more sense.

But from one example a rule can not be derived.
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Offline Beduino

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2009, 06:41:47 pm »
I don't know if it's directly from Dr. Frommer or something someone added later, but the source I saw has it written <ìr><m>, though I agree <ì<r>m> does make more sense.

But from one example a rule can not be derived.

The source I saw had it <ì<r>m>  (http://www.learnnavi.org/docs/Learn-Navi-Pocket-Guide.pdf)
Yeah, thats what I was thinking.. it's an example we have, but no one really sure if it's that way all the time..
Well, guess the best we have to do is understand the basic grammar and memorize some words :)

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Offline Txur’Itan

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2009, 06:59:08 pm »
This is pretty good stuff.
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Offline Uniltìranyu

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Re: Infix list
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2009, 07:23:04 pm »
Tense (First position)...
Past(Unknown)I have been hunting
Past proximate<ìm>Oe t<ìm>ronI was just hunting
Present(None)Oe taronI hunt
Future proximate(Unknown, speculatively <ìy>)Oe *t<ìy>ronI am about to go hunt
Future<ay>Oe t<ay>ronI will hunt
Aspect (First position)...
Imperfective<er>Oe t<er>aronI was hunting
Perfective<ol>Oe t<ol>aronI hunted
Combined aspect+tense (First position)
Past proximate imperfective<ìr><m>Oe t<ìr><m>aronI was just hunting
Other (First position)...
Unknown (Speculatively subjunctive)<iv>Oe t<iv>aronWere I hunting
Speaker attitude (Second position)...
Laudative<ei>Oe tar<ei>onI hunt, and like it
Pejorative<äng>Oe tar<äng>onI hunt, but I don't like it (Think Neytiri when she saves Jake)
Uncertainty/indirect knowledge(Unknown)
He might hunt

If someone with linguistic knowledge cares to correct me, feel free.

I feel like I want to say that there should be a 'habitual' state/tense for these infixes, but I don't have enough evidence/experience to detect it with certainty...
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