Author Topic: Lenition of prefixes  (Read 3626 times)

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2014, 06:02:35 pm »
But if I want to say "good one remains"? What difference will be? :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2014, 06:04:05 pm »
1, context
2, one use that word (repeat that word) again
3, asking Pawl
 :)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2014, 06:06:03 pm »
Interesting.

Evil sky people left, but the good ones remain.

Evil sky people left, but the good one remains.

Perhaps.. slä pum asìltsan 'ì'awn vs. slä sìltsana tsapum a'aw 'ì'awn.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2014, 06:18:31 pm »
It seems as capability reduction of the language :-X
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2014, 06:53:29 pm »
A difference, not a deficiency IMO. Some languages just don't make distinctions that others do. :-\

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2014, 07:09:11 am »
Anyway I don't like this... >:( It is an artificial prohibition and it does not seem natural, IMO. :-\ But, of cause, if Pawl say that it's only singular and we should use another ways to express that difference, I accept that. But I'd like to hear a detail explanation why pum could not be plural or why it would be better?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2014, 08:50:22 am »
Anyway I don't like this... >:( It is an artificial prohibition and it does not seem natural, IMO. :-\

Sorry to say that – and it’s not against you personally – but I think it a bit narrow-minded to read statements like that. That’s the same as to say it is ‘unnatural’ that “information” in English is a singular word while in Na’vi it can be put in the plural; or “news” is a plural word while in German it can be singular as well.

Languages don’t always work logically. That’s what makes them ‘natural’ – if one choses to use that word.

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2014, 09:01:37 am »
"Information" mean singular thing, but pum could mean plural things too. I see no reasons to make it singular only though its meaning could be plural :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2014, 09:16:47 am »
Yeah, but in German, "information" has a plural [Information -> Informationen], so we have the same problem like pum in Na'vi to translate something.

Ich brauche Informationen.
Oel kin aysäomumit.
I need information
. (no plural)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2014, 09:28:24 am »
I think of it like a variable name.

« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 09:35:39 am by Tirea Aean »

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2014, 09:32:28 am »
HRH! :D ;D
Now this is really "script-thinking"!

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2014, 09:37:27 am »
Many things in the language can be described with programming analogies. ;)

Yeah this thread is officially a mess now. I'll clean it up later when I am able, promise. (Unless another mod here would like to split it while I'm unable)

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2014, 09:53:39 am »
Many things in the language can be described with programming analogies. ;)
That's right, but it could be funny to translate script A to script X.
In languages happen the same funny tings.

Yeah this thread is officially a mess now. I'll clean it up later when I am able, promise. (Unless another mod here would like to split it while I'm unable)
You are on a smartphone? Anyway, I mentioned this some posts before. ;D
Ma ayOlo'eyktan, aynga zene pxìmivun'i fìkìngit...
Maybe a moderator could be nice to split this topic because of derailment... :-[

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #53 on: July 19, 2014, 10:00:41 am »
Yeah, but in German, "information" has a plural [Information -> Informationen], so we have the same problem like pum in Na'vi to translate something.

Ich brauche Informationen.
Oel kin aysäomumit.
I need information
. (no plural)

Then it is not a close translation. Probably in German "information" and säomum in Na'vi means "a piece of an information" and it could be pluralized. In English "information" is uncountable, in German and in Na'vi - countable, therefore could be pluralized. There are a bit different meanings in these languages. But I try understand the meaning of pum and I can't see any explanation why its meaning could not be pluralized though it could mean plural countable things.

Also I think that natural languages develops as it is convenient and easy for speakers. For example there is a verb 見る (to see) in Japanese, it is a second type verb and it has not a form 見れる. Grammatically it would be incorrect because first type verbs only have this form, for second type we should use 見られる. But in modern Japanese a lot of people use 見れる (could be seen; to be able to see something) because that is convenient. For Na'vi I see no reasons plural pum to be forbidden :-\
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2014, 10:07:21 am »
But pum is a place-holder, it is like a variable in a script as TA mentioned.
I understand pum as a "word-container" which could have plural or singular words. Their meaning depends on context.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2014, 10:12:21 am »
But pum is a place-holder, it is like a variable in a script as TA mentioned.
I understand pum as a "word-container" which could have plural or singular words which their meaning depends on context.


I said before that it could mean plural even if there is singular in the context, and also it could mean singular event there was plural before:

  Oeyä kelku lu hì'i, ngeyä helku lu apxa.

I think it would be natural to use fum in this sentence.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2014, 10:16:46 am »
But in so being a word container, it can refer to any specific instance of whatever. Which is why it is almost always found with an adjective or genitive.

My one(s) / mine (actually the word mine is for both singulars and plurals ;) )
Pum oeyä

The small one(s)
Hì'ia pum

etc

Edit

If we know by context or prior knowledge, we know you have many houses so it could be either. And you are able to use attributive description to be specific if you want

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2014, 10:18:15 am »
Well, then, this official example would be wrong:
Lam set fwa Sawtute akawng holum, pum asìltsan ’ì’awn.
Now it seems that the bad Skypeople have left, the good ones remain.
sawtute is pluralized, but pum is in singular.
By this logic, there should be fum, kefyak?

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2014, 10:23:12 am »
Well, then, this official example would be wrong:
Lam set fwa Sawtute akawng holum, pum asìltsan ’ì’awn.
Now it seems that the bad Skypeople have left, the good ones remain.
sawtute is pluralized, but pum is in singular.
By this logic, there should be fum, kefyak?

Yeah, it's what I mean. 猿も木から落ちる (Even monkeys fall from trees), i.e. everyone could be mistaken.

Or maybe sawtute means a collective noun here. Therefore I ask for detail explanation...
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Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2014, 10:37:35 am »
The definition of a collective noun is a singular noun which has a meaning of a collection of many of the same thing or group of members. Words like family, band, group, class, society, company etc.

Isn't there another Official example of a singular pum for plural noun instance?

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