Author Topic: Lenition of prefixes  (Read 3699 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wllìm

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • nl Netherlands
  • Karma: 50
    • Wimiso (weptsenge oeyä)
Lenition of prefixes
« on: July 15, 2014, 12:15:04 pm »
A small and probably easy question: do noun prefixes lenite if they are preceded by a lenition-causing adposition? For example the trial prefix pxe- and the question prefix pe- could lenite to pe- and fe- :)

Examples:

Nga 'olem mì pe-/pxe-helku srak?
Did you cook in three houses?

Nga 'olem mì fe-/pe-helku?
In which house did you cook?

My guess would be that they do lenite, but I was not able to find an example... :)
Reykunyu (dictionary website)Noun declensionsVerb infixes •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog
Seykxel sì nitram! Ngal rolun fì'upxaret aketsuktse'a! :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 12:19:27 pm »
From the logic, yes, they will be lenited. There is no reason why it shouldn't. :)

...mì pehelku
...mì fehelku

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Wllìm

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • nl Netherlands
  • Karma: 50
    • Wimiso (weptsenge oeyä)
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 12:25:01 pm »
Okay :) Irayo ma Tìtstewan :D
Reykunyu (dictionary website)Noun declensionsVerb infixes •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog
Seykxel sì nitram! Ngal rolun fì'upxaret aketsuktse'a! :D

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 12:31:27 pm »
We know that mì+ causes lenition of next consonant even if that is not the noun to which mì+ is related:

  + peyä kelkumì feyä kelku (not *mì peyä helku)

So I agree with Tìtstewan, it should be mì pehelku (not mì pxehelku) and mì fehelku (not mì pehelku).
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2014, 12:36:40 pm »
Yes, all those are not exempt from lenition. Even people's names are subject to lenition. (ìlä Feyral = according to Peyral)

The only words exempt from lenition are those that start with the syllable: 'rr or 'll. This is because lenition states ' gets dropped. But phonetic rules that override this say no word or syllable can start with rr or ll. So therefore you can have stuff like: mì 'rrta.

And I also totally agree with Kemaweyan and Tìtstewan.

Edit: if I ever saw mì pehelku, I would read that as: in three homes. mì fehelku I would read as: in what home?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 12:39:49 pm by Tirea Aean »

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Wllìm

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • nl Netherlands
  • Karma: 50
    • Wimiso (weptsenge oeyä)
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2014, 12:54:51 pm »
Irayo ma mesmuk :)

We know that mì+ causes lenition of next consonant even if that is not the noun to which mì+ is related:

   + peyä kelkumì feyä kelku (not *mì peyä helku)

So I agree with Tìtstewan, it should be mì pehelku (not mì pxehelku) and mì fehelku (not mì pehelku).
That makes sense :) I was confused because does not lenite completely unrelated words such as

Oe kelkumì sun tsun tivok.
I can be in the house.

... but your example makes it clear. Irayo :)

The only words exempt from lenition are those that start with the syllable: 'rr or 'll. This is because lenition states ' gets dropped. But phonetic rules that override this say no word or syllable can start with rr or ll. So therefore you can have stuff like: mì 'rrta.
Oh, I didn't know that. Good to know! :)

Edit: if I ever saw mì pehelku, I would read that as: in three homes. mì fehelku I would read as: in what home?
Unfortunately lenition is not yet "automatic" in my mind, so I read mì pehelku intuitively as "in which house"... Indeed it is logical that prefixes lenite but I had never thought of it and therefore I have done it wrong always. Well, I will need to "re-learn" this :P
Reykunyu (dictionary website)Noun declensionsVerb infixes •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog
Seykxel sì nitram! Ngal rolun fì'upxaret aketsuktse'a! :D

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 01:00:26 pm »
If such adpositions are used as a suffix, they don't cause a lenition :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2014, 01:07:11 pm »
Btw, I see something funny could happen, so be careful:

payhelku - which houses [pe + ay = pay]
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 01:21:26 pm »
Btw, I see something funny could happen, so be careful:

payhelku - which houses [pe + ay = pay]
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D

Hrh ;D
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Wllìm

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • nl Netherlands
  • Karma: 50
    • Wimiso (weptsenge oeyä)
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2014, 01:30:17 pm »
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D
Interesting! This almost, but not entirely, gives ambiguous sentences:
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku.You cooked in these houses.
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku?In which houses did you cook?
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku srak?Did you cook in these houses?
Reykunyu (dictionary website)Noun declensionsVerb infixes •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog
Seykxel sì nitram! Ngal rolun fì'upxaret aketsuktse'a! :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2014, 01:37:30 pm »
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D
Interesting! This almost, but not entirely, gives ambiguous sentences:
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku.You cooked in these houses.
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku?In which houses did you cook?
This two yes, but not this:
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku srak?Did you cook in these houses?
because of srak ;)

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2014, 01:37:49 pm »
This two yes, but not this:
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku srak?Did you cook in these houses?
because of srak ;)

Why no? mì fayhelhu means "in these houses" here and this question needs srak because there is not interrogative word :)

Now we can see why we need srak in questions :) Without srak this sentence would mean "In which houses did you cook?" ;) Very good example :D
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 01:41:34 pm by Kemaweyan »
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Wllìm

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 558
  • nl Netherlands
  • Karma: 50
    • Wimiso (weptsenge oeyä)
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 02:07:06 pm »
Yes, I meant that without srak being required for yes/no-questions, this would be ambiguous. :)
I really like this because it resembles natural languages :D
Reykunyu (dictionary website)Noun declensionsVerb infixes •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog
Seykxel sì nitram! Ngal rolun fì'upxaret aketsuktse'a! :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2014, 02:09:55 pm »
I mean that ambiguous sentence, and that sentence with srak cannot be mistanderstood as a question created by "payhelku". But I agree, this is a very good example why in this case one should use srak or add behind the word (payhelkumì)

Ninjad!

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2014, 02:15:32 pm »
Two another sentences are not ambiguous too. First one is not a question, so there couldn't be pe+ and we must understand it as "in these houses" only.

The second one is a question and there is no srak or another words with pe+. So mì fayhelku should be this interrogative: "in which houses?" ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2014, 02:18:20 pm »
Yes, but if there were no point/question mark. ;) ;D
You are of course right. :)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 02:46:08 pm by Tìtstewan »

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2014, 02:25:04 pm »
Yes, but if there were no point/question mark. ;) ;D

I think it would be a mistake :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Tay'waro

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 2
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2014, 02:15:19 pm »
From the logic, yes, they will be lenited. There is no reason why it shouldn't. :)

...mì pehelku
...mì fehelku

This recording can also be correct?
  mì fesayhelku = [ mì + pe + tsa + ay + kelku ]

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Eywatsyìp
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 10008
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 324
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 02:19:08 pm »
Yeah, should be also correct. mì+ causes lenition of next consonant. (yeah tripple lenition  ;D)

tsay+ kelku -> tsayhelku
pe+ tsayhelku -> pesayhelku
mì+ pesayhelku -> mì fesayhelku
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 02:24:01 pm by Tìtstewan »

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Tay'waro

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 362
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 2
Re: Lenition of prefixes
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2014, 02:28:39 pm »
Probably more than three does not happen?

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi