Lenition of prefixes

Started by Wllìm, July 15, 2014, 12:15:04 PM

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Wllìm

A small and probably easy question: do noun prefixes lenite if they are preceded by a lenition-causing adposition? For example the trial prefix pxe- and the question prefix pe- could lenite to pe- and fe- :)

Examples:

Nga 'olem mì pe-/pxe-helku srak?
Did you cook in three houses?

Nga 'olem mì fe-/pe-helku?
In which house did you cook?

My guess would be that they do lenite, but I was not able to find an example... :)

Tìtstewan

From the logic, yes, they will be lenited. There is no reason why it shouldn't. :)

...mì pehelku
...mì fehelku

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Wllìm


Kemaweyan

We know that mì+ causes lenition of next consonant even if that is not the noun to which mì+ is related:

  + peyä kelkumì feyä kelku (not *mì peyä helku)

So I agree with Tìtstewan, it should be mì pehelku (not mì pxehelku) and mì fehelku (not mì pehelku).
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tirea Aean

#4
Yes, all those are not exempt from lenition. Even people's names are subject to lenition. (ìlä Feyral = according to Peyral)

The only words exempt from lenition are those that start with the syllable: 'rr or 'll. This is because lenition states ' gets dropped. But phonetic rules that override this say no word or syllable can start with rr or ll. So therefore you can have stuff like: mì 'rrta.

And I also totally agree with Kemaweyan and Tìtstewan.

Edit: if I ever saw mì pehelku, I would read that as: in three homes. mì fehelku I would read as: in what home?

Wllìm

Irayo ma mesmuk :)

Quote from: Kemaweyan on July 15, 2014, 12:31:27 PM
We know that mì+ causes lenition of next consonant even if that is not the noun to which mì+ is related:

  + peyä kelkumì feyä kelku (not *mì peyä helku)

So I agree with Tìtstewan, it should be mì pehelku (not mì pxehelku) and mì fehelku (not mì pehelku).
That makes sense :) I was confused because does not lenite completely unrelated words such as

Oe kelkumì sun tsun tivok.
I can be in the house.

... but your example makes it clear. Irayo :)

Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 15, 2014, 12:36:40 PM
The only words exempt from lenition are those that start with the syllable: 'rr or 'll. This is because lenition states ' gets dropped. But phonetic rules that override this say no word or syllable can start with rr or ll. So therefore you can have stuff like: mì 'rrta.
Oh, I didn't know that. Good to know! :)

Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 15, 2014, 12:36:40 PM
Edit: if I ever saw mì pehelku, I would read that as: in three homes. mì fehelku I would read as: in what home?
Unfortunately lenition is not yet "automatic" in my mind, so I read mì pehelku intuitively as "in which house"... Indeed it is logical that prefixes lenite but I had never thought of it and therefore I have done it wrong always. Well, I will need to "re-learn" this :P

Kemaweyan

If such adpositions are used as a suffix, they don't cause a lenition :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Btw, I see something funny could happen, so be careful:

payhelku - which houses [pe + ay = pay]
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 15, 2014, 01:07:11 PM
Btw, I see something funny could happen, so be careful:

payhelku - which houses [pe + ay = pay]
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D

Hrh ;D
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Wllìm

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 15, 2014, 01:07:11 PM
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D
Interesting! This almost, but not entirely, gives ambiguous sentences:

Nga 'olem mì fayhelku.You cooked in these houses.
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku?In which houses did you cook?
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku srak?Did you cook in these houses?

Tìtstewan

Quote from: Wllìm on July 15, 2014, 01:30:17 PM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 15, 2014, 01:07:11 PM
mì fayhelku - in which houses [mì + pe + ay = mì fay] danger of confusing it with mì fayhelku - in these houses [fì + ay = fay] ;D
Interesting! This almost, but not entirely, gives ambiguous sentences:
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku.You cooked in these houses.
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku?In which houses did you cook?
This two yes, but not this:
Quote from: Wllìm on July 15, 2014, 01:30:17 PM
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku srak?Did you cook in these houses?
because of srak ;)

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Kemaweyan

#11
Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 15, 2014, 01:37:30 PM
This two yes, but not this:
Quote from: Wllìm on July 15, 2014, 01:30:17 PM
Nga 'olem mì fayhelku srak?Did you cook in these houses?
because of srak ;)

Why no? mì fayhelhu means "in these houses" here and this question needs srak because there is not interrogative word :)

Now we can see why we need srak in questions :) Without srak this sentence would mean "In which houses did you cook?" ;) Very good example :D
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Wllìm

Yes, I meant that without srak being required for yes/no-questions, this would be ambiguous. :)
I really like this because it resembles natural languages :D

Tìtstewan

I mean that ambiguous sentence, and that sentence with srak cannot be mistanderstood as a question created by "payhelku". But I agree, this is a very good example why in this case one should use srak or add behind the word (payhelkumì)

Ninjad!

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Kemaweyan

Two another sentences are not ambiguous too. First one is not a question, so there couldn't be pe+ and we must understand it as "in these houses" only.

The second one is a question and there is no srak or another words with pe+. So mì fayhelku should be this interrogative: "in which houses?" ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

#15
Yes, but if there were no point/question mark. ;) ;D
You are of course right. :)

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 15, 2014, 02:18:20 PM
Yes, but if there were no point/question mark. ;) ;D

I think it would be a mistake :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tay'waro

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 15, 2014, 12:19:27 PM
From the logic, yes, they will be lenited. There is no reason why it shouldn't. :)

...mì pehelku
...mì fehelku

This recording can also be correct?
  mì fesayhelku = [ mì + pe + tsa + ay + kelku ]

Tìtstewan

#18
Yeah, should be also correct. mì+ causes lenition of next consonant. (yeah tripple lenition  ;D)

tsay+ kelku -> tsayhelku
pe+ tsayhelku -> pesayhelku
mì+ pesayhelku -> mì fesayhelku

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Tay'waro

Probably more than three does not happen?