Author Topic: Modal constructions and mood infixes  (Read 1575 times)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Modal constructions and mood infixes
« on: December 02, 2011, 03:20:46 am »
Do we have any information where go mood infixes (ei, äng, ats, uy) in modal constructions? The only I found comes from Horen leNa'vi:
Quote
6.8.3.1. The verb controlled by the modal will not take any tense or aspect infixes, just the simple subjunctive. So, tense and aspect marking should go on the modal, oe namew tse’a I wanted to see, never *oe new tsimve’a. However, the controlled verb will keep its causative or reflexive marking.
Does it mean that mood infixes must go into modal verb only too?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2011, 02:00:39 pm by Blue Elf »
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Offline Carborundum

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Re: Modal constructions and mood infixes
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 08:13:17 am »
ei, äng, ats and uy are affects, not moods.

The source of the information you cite is this, where it is stated rather more clearly:

The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.

So, no affects either.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Modal constructions and mood infixes
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 09:06:17 am »
they go in the modal.

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Offline Tanri

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Re: Modal constructions and mood infixes
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2011, 11:57:14 am »
Quote
When using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.
All sources I found speak only about tense and aspect. Isn't there a possibility that the affect infixes was simply forgotten?

It can be nice to be able to distinguish between modal and controlled verb, for example in "oe zene tsakem sivi":
"Oe zenänge tsakem sivi" - I don't like the fact that I must do something, but the action itself isn't irritating for me.
"Oe zene tsakem sivängi" - I understand that I must do something, but I don't like that action itself.
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Re: Modal constructions and mood infixes
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2011, 12:35:19 pm »
it may be up to context:

oe zenänge tsakem sivi
I must do that, not happy about it.

but if i knew you to be a person who hates doing that, i would know that the reason for äng is obvious. otherwise id ask to find out:

srake ngal tsakemit ve'vì / srake ngaru ke sunu tsakem?

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Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Modal constructions and mood infixes
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2011, 12:36:47 pm »
Quote
When using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.
All sources I found speak only about tense and aspect. Isn't there a possibility that the affect infixes was simply forgotten?

It can be nice to be able to distinguish between modal and controlled verb, for example in "oe zene tsakem sivi":
"Oe zenänge tsakem sivi" - I don't like the fact that I must do something, but the action itself isn't irritating for me.
"Oe zene tsakem sivängi" - I understand that I must do something, but I don't like that action itself.
This is the source of the source referenced above:

   Default infixes go into the modal, the subordinate verb can only have the pre-first causative, reflexive or both. (And the subjunctive, of course.)

This is in turn summarized from the notes of one of the Ultxa Ayharyuä participants:

Quote
Default infixes to go on the modal. "Po nolängew späpivong.[sic]" is correct.
 
Ei or äng refer to speakers opinion on the sentence. The only thing that can go in the subordinate verb is the pre-first causative, reflexive, or both. Everything else goes in the modal verb.

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Offline Tanri

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Re: Modal constructions and mood infixes
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2011, 12:51:43 pm »
Quote
Default infixes to go on the modal. "Po nolängew späpivong.[sic]" is correct.
Ei or äng refer to speakers opinion on the sentence. The only thing that can go in the subordinate verb is the pre-first causative, reflexive, or both. Everything else goes in the modal verb.
Thank you, now it seems to be very clear.

Poor modal verbs with such a load of infixes ;D
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